When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
S4E27 Exploring Koans and Spiritual Wisdom Across Cultures
Can koans untangle the complexities of our minds and offer a path to mental clarity? Explore this fascinating possibility with our special guest, Nikki, who passionately shares her experiences with these intricate Zen riddles. By challenging the intellectual mind, koans invite us into a space of simplicity and stillness, a concept that resonates deeply with the practice of meditation. We also reflect on how younger generations are more receptive to integrating mindfulness into their daily lives, potentially unlocking new avenues for mental clarity and balance. From "just sitting" in silence to appreciating the wisdom of being present, this discussion promises to both challenge and inspire.
Join us as we traverse the rich tapestry of spiritual wisdom that transcends cultural divides. We find intriguing connections between Buddhist teachings and the principles of the 12-step programs of AA, highlighting the universal nature of spiritual insights. A puzzling koan, "In a place where there's nothing, what is it?" serves as a springboard for pondering the essence of existence and the human pursuit of meaning. Our conversation delves into the fusion of Eastern spirituality with Western psychology, celebrating the beauty of simply observing thoughts without judgment. Nikki candidly shares her personal journey towards embracing this mindset, underscoring the importance of patience and openness in our quest for understanding.
We are back for an episode on how to unravel your brain. So if you are tuning in and your brain is all tangled up, we have some information to help untangle it today, right, nikki?
Speaker 2:Yes, Are we going to do that through my beloved koans, which I just they hurt my brain in a way that is feel so good I was gonna say.
Speaker 1:No one has ever said beloved and koan in the same sentence. You know, I mean I. I know I've talked about this a bit, but I am by far one of the youngest people at my zendo still, and I've been there with him for almost 15 years wow.
Speaker 2:So what do you like? You think people don't want to untangle their brains?
Speaker 1:well, the reason yeah, I think we're afraid to do that. I also think the reason I brought that up was because you talked uh, wait, what did you say?
Speaker 2:you said that the my, my beautiful koans my beloved, my beloved koans that hurt my brain and they hurt my brain so good.
Speaker 1:Because I think if you're retired you have more space to sort of do some of that work. Sure, Right, and that's. I think. That is why I love when East meets West and that we're trying to like give this to say the younger generations, because if I really wish I had Zen at a younger age, you know.
Speaker 2:Totally. I mean you know, I mean I, I can't tell you off when I tell some of my younger patients like I mean I wasn't doing this when I was your age I wish I was and they're like but you're, I was like, yeah, I went to school for it, I started learning it in school, so you're doing a great job, but you know well, but it's okay, cause I you know, I love hearing you talk about these, cause I, as I say many times on this podcast, I am not, um, I'm not like formally a Buddhist, but I am, as I described myself, as Buddhist, informed in terms of the worldview and the teachings, but I am, uh, lacking significant knowledge about just a lot of the koans, and so I love hearing about them from you. So could you like talk a little bit more about sort of why they're meant to help untangle the mind Like how do those things, how does it work?
Speaker 1:Like, what's the reason for that? Just sit, nikki. So the little inside joke there for listeners is that they're nikki's really smart, and a lot of us.
Speaker 1:When you look to intellectualize what the practice is, that's where you get stuck and and I will I will say it's still a place where I'm stuck because and I've my teacher is so smart and you know, I've I've gently, like I'm not gonna say called him out on this, but I'm just always curious of like how he could be so smart, so, so red, and like a lot of his end teachings are um kind of forced you to like know a lot of stories or poems or authors or things of that nature and um, but really the art of sitting, the art of meditation, the art of Zen is, is is probably the most simple thing to do, and it is just to sit, and so what that means is just sit.
Speaker 2:Just sit.
Speaker 1:It could be in a chair, it could be on a cushion, whatever it is, just sit. And what you learn from that discipline, from that stillness, is that you realize how loud your brain is, and so that's what I think you're talking about with the younger patients.
Speaker 2:Right Like that, they don't just sit still right I think you're talking about with the younger patients right Like that they, they, they don't just sit still right, well, they do, well they, they do, they do it more that they have more awareness about that.
Speaker 1:but it's like I think, because they're seeing you or just because their generation does?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, Because there's like well, I think it's both, that I think there's more of an awareness in their generation, and then they seek out treatments that are informed by some of these concepts, you know. So they're doing work that I didn't do at their age, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you and I already said that, and you said that before and I'm going to say it again because I always say that to athletes. I'm like if, if I was a student athlete in your seat when I was in that seat, there's no way I would have listened to a Dr Pete, I would have been like get this guy out of here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally, totally, yeah. So I have such deep respect for the kids, as they say the kids, as they say the kids these days. But I want to come back to Coen's, because I hear you and obviously am in agreement, that the sitting is where the work happens. Yeah, I really connect to that as a practice, though I guess what I'm wondering about is like, look, koans, they are getting at the part of the brain that wants to intellectualize and hijacking it in a really cool way to untangle. I'm wondering if, like your understanding, is that that's why they were created? It's like we know that there are going to be humans, that that's the part of their brain they want to use. They're really stuck in intellectualization. So it's like, okay, well, we're going to come up. It's almost like a Trojan horse, like, okay, sure, let's go to the really intellectual part of the mind and then let's pull apart the thoughts and try to get some space, like, is that kind of why they were created or utilized, or am I just that's riffing?
Speaker 1:I don't know the why. I mean, I think yeah I would imagine I mean, but I bring up the sitting because when you sit you work on koans.
Speaker 2:That's also one of the ways that you go hand in hand, so it's not like you're given a koan and then you sit exactly.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so you're not like you're given a koan and then you sit Exactly Okay. Yeah, so you're not like sitting there like licking your finger turning the page.
Speaker 2:Sure, but it's not just, it's not maybe just like a, not just like paying attention to your breath, that you're like given, you're given a koan and then space to to wrestle with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and students will wrestle with it for months, years or longer. Right, so it's's not. It's not like you, just okay. This week, your homework is this color next week, your homework is another.
Speaker 2:No, it might be like one you might be one for your entire like zen career, if you will wow yeah, um, I have I just like felt anxious hearing, just like flare out of flare of anxiety, as you were saying that yeah you know I've worked on a few and my I think my teacher wants for me to be doing more in that sort of traditional way.
Speaker 1:But that's part of what he and I are talking a lot about, because even traditionally I don't need a brick and mortar zendo necessarily I might. But the idea that we have when east meets west, or the idea that we are sort of reaching larger lot about because even traditionally I don't need a brick and mortar Zendo, necessarily I might. But the idea that we have One East Meets West, or the idea that we are sort of reaching larger audiences around this and bridging the gap between, say, zen and psychology, is a beautiful opportunity to give people this tool, you know, these tools that are there for us and they're there for everybody.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean, and I think what you're highlighting is like there isn't just one path to untangle your mind, like even with Buddhism, like Buddhism is not the only approach in the world, you know, it's not the only spiritual wisdom that exists out there.
Speaker 2:Right, like there's many ways, there's many, you know there's just many paths, like I sometimes I think about, like, um, patients or actually friends I've had that I've been in like AA, like in 12 step programs and you know what, what is shared, uh, the wisdom in those programs and the big book it's very, it's very aligned with everything I've learned from from, uh, buddhist teachings. But but those guys that created the big book were not buddhists, they were christians. So it's like there's it's a wisdom that has existed across cultures and and humans, but there's just different sort of uh traditions, right, or techniques or interventions that have evolved to get there. So you know, I appreciate what you're saying, um, and go, go ahead. I was like I want to hear about, I want to hear about koans, I want to know a koan I think what you were saying was also that, like all, this stuff is more alike than different, and that is yeah like a pretty zen teaching, uh, and so all right.
Speaker 1:So this week one of the teachers gave a talk and it's it's curious because I don't know that this is actually a published koan, because sometimes you know, especially because she's an advanced teacher and so sometimes they. It's curious because I don't know that this is actually a published koan Because sometimes you know, especially because she's an advanced teacher and so sometimes they just sort of come up with their own Sure, yeah, published. And so in a place where there's nothing.
Speaker 2:What is it?
Speaker 1:Ooh, I like that. Oh, I like that very much.
Speaker 2:Listeners are like huh, well, well, so then what do we say? So is it's like what shows up, so like, would you want to know, like what it shows up for me. Like, is that what the point is? Or we sure like you want to do that sure, I don't know, I'm just saying, like I have a well, I would say, like there's nothing.
Speaker 1:What is it?
Speaker 2:there, I would say there isn't. No, there is no such thing as nothing. I go like real physics-y about it, like there's no space, like there's like spaces and illusion and, like you know, ruben, are you going intellectual on this. Oh, I am.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so again, the brain is just, it loves to go there. It's like, let me find the answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when also like the part that feels like. For me it's like the fun part of what, like finding the answer, because, like, problem solving is fun. So people like puzzles right, like puzzles, it's fun, it's challenging and like the dark side of uh, you know, puzzling, is that sometimes like there isn't an answer, right, like, or sometimes that is, you know it's kind of like if you're doing a puzzle and you just know there's one piece missing, but you can't find it, it's like be okay with that, and and I think that that's what that's love.
Speaker 1:I love that. No, I'm like nikki just gave like a emoji I did, I was like, uh, because you know that's act, that's our act stuff.
Speaker 1:You know you, you talked about speaking with the supervisee and let it go, and how hard it is and how that could sound a little dismissive or invalidating, um, but to really radically accept what is is, is is such a powerful tool and so, uh, in a place where there's nothing, what is it? And I still get stuck on that, like sometimes I'll go in with my teacher, that's what we talk, it's Dyson and you're, you're having like a one-on-one and you want to get the most out of it. At least I do.
Speaker 2:You want to optimize, you want to maximize. That's another another huge human-y thing to do, me too, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then sometimes what I did along my journey was just going there and sit without saying anything, you know, and just sit with him one-on-one and, um, you know, that's really powerful and you know, and when I sit with clients, it's really powerful, it's like such a vulnerable feeling.
Speaker 1:It is your heart open, you know, on the cushion, kind of just seeing what comes up for you and um, so I'll add another level to this that she, you know, when she was teaching this she gave us and joshu is like a person that's written often in in koans and just a lot of the zen readings, and so, um, there's another story about joshu's stone bridge and you know, the the monk was trying to figure it all out and um, joshu responded that anyone can cross over a donkey or a horse, and you know. So there are some lessons in some of this stuff because, again, we're very quick to identify with our materials, you know, with our, with our power, and so, joshua Stonebridge, anyone can cross a donkey or a horse.
Speaker 2:So in that, so like in that and and you tell me if I'm like missing the point of these completely but it's like would there be discussion of like like you're saying there could be lessons, like what does that mean? Yeah, like what? What are they trying to communicate?
Speaker 1:yeah, exactly so, like this non-judgment you know yeah, okay like you know, both the donkey and the horse are are are resourceful, you know. I guess a horse would be seen as a little bit more demure and powerful, um, and I think you know, but you always love the interpretation.
Speaker 2:So the donkey often in many cultures is an ass, you know sure, sure, well to me, I I experience it as like an equalizer of like, also like everyone's capable or everyone there's, like a mad everyone matters kind of thing.
Speaker 1:You know, like a mattering, yeah, yeah and so those, those messages, right, the messages of everyone suffers in the same kind of way that first noble truth. And so, whether it's a donkey or horse, whatever the bridge is, um, you know we talked a couple episodes ago about you know the raft is of no use to you after you've crossed, you know. But every most listeners would be like but yeah, I could use the raft again in two months, or you know that's that's yeah, go ahead what was just saying.
Speaker 2:it's like so that's where like I'm just like watching what's happening inside myself while you're talking through it and it's like I can see the part of my brain that wants to like get involved and talk through it and think through it and like that's kind of interesting and I'm like pulled to listen to that. But then I'm also just noticing like the parts of myself that like feel like a little uncomfortable because it's like, oh, I'm just trying to let it be there. I'm not trying, if I don't try to solve it, if I just like be with my reactions. Some, some moments of it were anxiety, but others is just sort of like unsettled because it's not, it's not clean, it's not neat. So anyway, I just um love you interesting.
Speaker 2:I love you, I do oh, I love you as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, uh-huh, yeah, and I love you for that vulnerability of just like kind of working through the koan in vivo yeah, yeah, you know, I love I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't have a zendo, so I like to hear pete talk about the cons I ask him about him yes, I ask. I ask him about these all the time, do I not? I'm always like when are we gonna talk about koans?
Speaker 1:really find them fascinating yeah, maybe for our next business venture that we're working on, we could have like a whole, uh, a series of educational teaching.
Speaker 2:Maybe we. That's a very I I. That is a very cool idea. I like that.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you'll remember Cause I'll, I will, I will. I definitely will. Yeah, listeners like that's, that's the co-on world, I mean it. You know we've talked about it here.
Speaker 2:Our goal is to bring you a few of them here and there and kind of interweave them in and, uh, nikki, anything else coming up for you or other questions or that you have around no, I think I'm just going to be sitting with these, uh, these stories for the rest of the day, a little bit, and I'm going to try to practice what you were uh recommending, which is to just like sit with them, just like kind of notice what comes up in a place where there's nothing.
Speaker 1:What is it? You know, really, uh, it's, it's simple, it's so simple, you know, does a dog have buddhahood moo? You know, like they're so simple, they don't make sense. Um, but they can give you some direction and it is a little bit of like a map, just to sit and just to see what comes up.
Speaker 1:And, like, nikki, like you said, it's sometimes a little bit of like a map, just to sit and just to see what comes up. And like, nikki, like you said, it's sometimes a little bit of anxiety, your brain's kind of trying to fix it all. And it's a beautiful thing just to sit it really is. So that's all I got on this. So we will be back on another episode of when east meets west, when you can listen in to learn more about how eastern spiritual spiritual practices weave so beautifully with western psychological science.
