When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
S4E24 Resilience in the Aftermath: Healing Collective Trauma in Los Angeles
This episode delves into the concept of collective trauma through the lens of the recent fires in Los Angeles. We explore resilience, coping strategies, and the importance of community support in the aftermath of such devastating events.
• Defining collective trauma and its impact on communities
• Personal experiences with the recent L.A. fires
• Importance of vulnerability and sharing in healing
• Cognitive behavioral therapy versus acceptance and commitment therapy
• Role of compassion and mindful awareness during trauma
• Resilience of the community in the face of adversity
• Historical context of natural disasters in L.A.
• Strategies for clinicians to support clients through trauma
• Acknowledging pain while continuing to live life fully
• Discussing post-traumatic growth and its implications
• The dialectic of balancing trauma and other life experiences
• Understanding impermanence and its role in healing
• Community response and support systems during disasters
We encourage listeners to reflect on personal experiences and connections they have formed during tough times as they navigate their own journeys of healing and resilience.
so pete. Today we are going to be talking about collective trauma because, um, you know, if listeners are joining us for this episode, um, you know, in january 2025, um, somebody who is a? Uh, native angeleno and and still a resident of los angeles, we are in the um, the shadow of um the recent um eaten in palisades fires here yeah, why?
Speaker 2:that's why listeners will hear a little somberness in our voice. Yeah, I appreciate you bringing this topic and being brave. Uh, because it's important, because there's a lot of other people who are suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it you know. It's something that I, of course, I'm experiencing as well. Right, it's not you know, and I was. I didn't I. Thankfully I, my family, is safe and I am safe, so I did not. I did not lose my home, my home, but as everybody in Los Angeles is experiencing, nobody's untouched by it. I actually can't count the number of people that I know that lost their homes or their businesses, and so it would just be inauthentic not to talk about it frankly.
Speaker 2:That's why I'm so glad that you are, because one of the things about Nikki listeners and you know we like to, especially psychologists in general we don't give a lot of ourselves, you know, publicly. It's important that we have a little bit of a lot of bit of boundaries, and so this is important because maybe we can share some kind of skills to manage this collective trauma and other things that will come up from a cognitive behavioral therapy perspective collective trauma and other things that will come up from a cognitive behavioral therapy perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and actually I would well, and maybe I would say it would be more.
Speaker 1:I will say this is where act, acceptance and commitment therapy is um, no disrespect to cbt, but probably more relevant, more relevant here, um, which is really, as I, you know, I've said many times this podcast, I think of act as buddhism plus behaviorism.
Speaker 1:So some of the things that I've been practicing myself and have come up in a lot of my sessions with patients here in Los Angeles is that the stuff that we practice all the time is so important right now, which are things like compassion for ourselves and others, mindful awareness and experiencing of whatever emotions we're having and, honestly, connection. And I gotta say, um, you know this, as tragic as this has all been and as painful as it's been, the, the vibe of resilience in the city, resiliency has been so moving and it's been the um, it's been like the common thread, I would say people talking like that, like I can't even tell you how many times I've had conversations, even just like random people, you know, like in a store or something. It's like the kindness has been so immense and this and the resiliency and I think, um, that's something that I've spoken a lot about with patients is that you know, resiliency is born out of experiencing pain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes me think of so. That's why we're talking about collective trauma. It's a psychological term and there's lots. For us on the East Coast it was something like 9-11.
Speaker 1:That's what I've said. I've told a lot of my friends and colleagues, like yourself. I've talked to you. I say that's the only thing I can think is comparable in terms of like the destruction, not as, not maybe as disturbing in a way. I mean, it was not that it's not disturbing to lose your home, but more like it wasn't. You know it wasn't a terrorist act, yeah.
Speaker 2:And by no means are we. We're not trying to compare. You know, that's social, no, no, no, I don't mean it in that way, just trying to.
Speaker 1:Trying to find, I just more mean in the um, where do you find the threads of similarity and where are their differences? Yeah, I mean these natural disasters right People in new Orleans and.
Speaker 2:Florida and you know in in in New York we had Sandy and you know I love I don't. You shared a beautiful article from the LA times with me which was really helpful for me to read from the East.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Documented this sort of history of the fires like from the early sixties and seventies and before you remember that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, I do. Yeah, it's. It's talking about the, the portions of Los Angeles and, in part, of Malibu and the palisades, um, and the and the, the small communities that exist there that are really, you know, kind of like in the mountains. Frankly, you know, you're right in nature they're at the beach, but the mountains too yeah, so in nature and so those.
Speaker 2:So what helped? What I didn't realize is like how chronic of an issue this is and that really in that area.
Speaker 1:People have been plagued by this for as long as they've lived there right yeah, yeah, I mean I, when I was, when I was a kid and you know there was another close call my family home almost burned and and a fire in the 90s. I mean it's, it's a part, it's a part of the ecosystem here. So everybody that lives here knows this is a part of their. You know it's a part of the risk, like, if you live in Florida, the risk of hurricanes. But what's never been experienced in modern Los Angeles is this level of devastation across the city and like so many things happening concurrently. So that's what's different about it this time.
Speaker 2:This time so, and then also the risk of earthquakes. Is that that's pretty common there as well?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah, earthquake yes and um. So yeah and there's, and you know and this is maybe a different topic for another time but yeah, there's. In some ways, that's something that we're um, maybe more, maybe more prepared for in terms of, like, the way buildings are designed right like all the retrofitting and things.
Speaker 1:Um, uh, fire has been something like certain parts of the city expect it. Um, but parts, there are, parts that don't so, parts that you know, parts that burned in this fire it was. It was very fast moving and and very, uh, shocking that it happened yeah, so how's it presenting you know?
Speaker 2:so, so, so thank you for you know being brave to share this, and I've been.
Speaker 2:You know you and I've been texting and just you know sending some love and it's all you can really do. So you know also just from. You know psychology or crisis psychology is just just being supportive. I mean there's no, you know, intervention psychology or crisis psychology is just just being supportive. I mean there's no, you know intervention or acts necessarily during these moments. But I wonder what has it been like for you just clinically? Or you know it must be in every session or sort of in everyone's life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. I mean I would say that, you know, and it's interesting like again, like this is obviously coming up across the board and and even in my sessions with folks that are like still in New York, right, which has been very kind People have reached out to patients, have reached out to me, check on me. These guys are very, you know, just yes, immense kindness. Lot of times people go I feel weird talking about fill in the blank, that's something not related to to, uh, the fires. And you know, and I've heard that both from people that live here where it's impacting them, they'll say, like, is it weird to talk about something else?
Speaker 1:Or people on the East coast that are saying I feel weird talking about this with you, knowing that that's happening in your, in your hometown, um, and so what I've been sharing a lot with people is like, look, like we talk about this podcast all the time. It's a dialectic, like we want to make space for all the things. So I said, look, it's not helpful to pretend like the tragedy is not or the trauma is not occurring. It's not helpful to like ignore it and say I just want to pretend like nothing's going on and I'm not going to acknowledge it. That's not helpful. It's also not helpful to only talk about it and say that's the only thing happening right.
Speaker 2:Beautiful dialectic.
Speaker 1:Yes, beautiful dialectic. And so what we've been talking a lot about and practicing together is starting with making room for what's painful and then also making space for everything else and kind of discussing how, again to come back to resilience how that is what helps us feel more resilient and grounded. And you know, so I've been doing that and again, like that has been my experience about from other colleagues, friends, family, patients Like, again, not like it's 100%, but that's the, that's the main vibe, you know. So it's just like this is what's happening. I mean, this is like what's happening right now, like there's. You know, pretending it's not happening doesn't make it go away, um, and only focusing on it doesn't help us actually tolerate what's difficult, like we need space from it too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a beautiful way of describing dialectic and radical acceptance. I was on a call with colleagues and they were talking just a check-in post-winter break. And someone's parents were ill and the stuff, and then everyone's like, oh, that's so hard. Then they come to me and I'm like, yeah, it's cool. Like you know, break was cool, busy, it's life.
Speaker 1:You know, I was like life is life, you know like it's full of well and it, and it's still happening, even when, even when there's trauma, like somebody said to me the other day in session, something to the effect of, like it's so interesting how time stops for no one, and I said it's true, but that doesn't mean we minimize the tragedy. It's making space for both things. You know what I mean and something that's also. I'd love to hear your thoughts, but I feel like you'll probably be a little bit more up on the research than me.
Speaker 1:But I've talked a lot with patients about um, the um, the not concept, but the phenomenon. I guess is the word uh for post-traumatic growth. So you know a lot of people are familiar, or most people familiar, with post-traumatic stress disorder which, to be clear, if you develop PTSD following a threat to your life or or uh somebody else, that's not a negative comment on your resiliency right Like that can PTSD can develop for all kinds of reasons. Um, what's also interesting is that there's a whole like wing of research where they find that sometimes when people experience traumas, they actually um, they flourish after there's a right there's like they call it post-traumatic growth. Um, yeah, so I've people have been like really, I'm like yeah, but doesn't it kind of make sense like yeah, I think this is a tadeci and calhoun.
Speaker 2:These were some researchers out there in this work. Yeah, so it's, it comes up, you know just, uh, it's so interesting because people are so much more familiar with ptsd but the strength-based approach would be the post-traumatic growth and in the sports world, um. So, going back to one of the things you just said, uh, as a coach I work with, that would say the only thing that's equitable in life is time. You know and oh wow yeah, I remember the first time I heard that and I was like damn, like that is yeah you know, it's true, no matter how much money you have, because that's the other thing that's happening.
Speaker 2:Right, people are like oh, as much as rich people there, so who cares, they'll just deal with it. Or you know material things, you know, which is sad, because that's just the world that we live in. You know, because everyone's trying to sort of socially compare and one up and um, but the post-traumatic growth that research looks at how it takes in the world of sports we would say it takes, you know, pain to grow.
Speaker 1:I know you have always said about, like the growing pains and and that's yeah, yeah yeah yeah, it's, it is, and and you know, um, look, everybody has, everybody has hard things that are going to happen. We don't know what, what they're going to be. Um, certainly, you know, nobody, nobody foresaw this happening. I mean, I actually was thinking a lot about, like, the day before the fires was, I was like out for a walk with my dog and I was, I just it was striking to me, I, because I what happened the next day? I was thinking like what a beautiful day it was in January. It was like sunny, it was like the sixt 60s, it wasn't windy yet, and then the next day, you know, was literally like the city is burning down.
Speaker 1:So we just, we don't know, and, um, no, and you know, human brains don't like that. You know, and I'm not trying to suggest to anybody listening that you're, you're, everyone's going to encounter a trauma. That's, that's not true. But um, we'll all encounter difficult things and, and a lot of times there are going to be difficult things that we don't expect um, on the flip side, wonderful things will happen as well sometimes, you know um the concept of that post-traumatic growth yeah, yeah I was just going to bring in a little bit of impermanence.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, I think, yeah, every, you know, I mean I think, just from the buddhist eastern perspective, is that nothing's forever. You know, there's literally nothing that's forever. Which time's not forever? Our possessions, you know whatever we've been earned, awarded you know, really just. Uh, that's just for listeners to hear, you know, because it's so that wouldn't be anything we would say to people that are that's not helpful in a collective trauma experience.
Speaker 1:No, because, you know, I think it's interesting. I mean, I think bringing up impermanence is important here, cause I think sometimes we've discussed this, pete and I, off the podcast like impermanence can be like misinterpreted by people, to like to become dismissive of the meaning we attach to experiences, things, places, right, stays, like you know, x amount of moments just pass, like you know, we can never get them back, like we're only ever in the moment that we exist, in which sounds really like woo and out there. But it's not. It's very concrete and literal, um, so you know, but the our connection to them that is actually what I would say transcends time. Yes, right, so you know when you lose everything that, um, you own, you know, your home, your things, you know photos, you know, lose people, animals, right, all kind like that, um, it's, I think.
Speaker 1:When people uh misinterpret impermanence, you know, and so it keeps giving that gentle warning around, not saying that to people, it's like saying it's just, it's, I think when people uh misinterpret impermanence, you know, and so it keeps giving that gentle warning around, not saying that to people, it's like saying it's just, it's just, they're just things or it's gonna pass, it's like that's not helpful, like, yes, um, nothing lasts forever in that way, but our connection, our love, you know, for those people places things um that. I would say that that transcends, that's not impermanent right? Yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, uh, well, or listeners have to listen to our episode of memory eventually to see that even sometimes that stuff can come and go. But yeah, but I I think the key is, you know I've been shots out to, like the red cross and all these other organizations and the firefighters and the farm. You know all these people that are there kind of trying to pull together and you know it really that is collective trauma. I mean there's whether somebody is collecting the debris or the garbage, or you know a celebrity that was able to hire their own, you know water company or whatever, whatever it is. The bottom line is you know it's collective and creating space. You know for people it is. The bottom line is you know it's collective and creating space. You know for people and, uh, you know, certainly, uh, here in the east we feel really helpless. You know for our, our, our family and other americans on the west coast. But you know I'm just sending you some more love well, well, thank you.
Speaker 1:We, we feel it and you know I hope uh, I hope for listeners know whether you are somebody that is tied to Los Angeles in some way or you're maybe just somebody who's listening to this episode reflecting about. You know your own painful, you know experiences in your life. Maybe you've gone through a trauma, or maybe you know you've experienced a loss. You know you've experienced a loss. I hope that you know maybe some of what Pete and I've talked about today in terms of allowing yourself the space to experience that pain can also be a reminder that that is where you also build and cultivate resiliency.
