When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E23 The Art of Friend Dating in Modern Times
Navigating friendships in adulthood can feel daunting, but understanding it as "friend dating" opens up new possibilities for connection. By focusing on personal interests and being open to vulnerability, listeners can cultivate meaningful relationships in their lives.
• The significance of "friend dating" as a metaphor
• The impact of adult responsibilities on friendships
• Regional differences in friendship dynamics
• Practical activities for finding like-minded individuals
• Overcoming vulnerabilities and fears in social situations
• The role of social media in connecting with others
• Strategies for expanding social circles
• The importance of patience and consistency in friendships
well, pete, I think this is a really um uh, what's the term? Apropos um episode, because we're going to be talking about um finding and making friends as adults, and you and I made made friends as adults, right?
Speaker 2:I kind of remember like our first friend date, now that you just said that yeah, you do I mean like all the different bars no, that was no, that was not.
Speaker 1:Well, that was our first, like that was our first fancy friend date. I was gonna say I think our first friend date is when we went to get like fries and grilled cheese sandwiches at the hospital cafeteria. Do you remember? Like yeah, yeah yeah, we did, but we did. But we did have a fancy friend date in the city because in new york.
Speaker 1:You lived in manhattan just, and I was always uh, educating nikki on like how to drive, where to drive yes, yep, yep she when it was snowing, that I never had driven the snow and I had to drive into jersey and he would call me in the morning and say do not get in the car, I do not want you on the road. It was very for our friend dating.
Speaker 2:I propose to be talking about friend dating.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that's, I was just like Pete, that's that's what I like to call it. So it's something we were saying. It comes up a lot clinically in our work and you know, for listeners I'm hoping this is probably something that resonates with you is that people are always like, how do I make friends? Like after you know? You know, whatever you're out of school, you're out, maybe you're working remotely.
Speaker 1:Now you don't work in an office with a lot of people, right, when you're out of sort of these structured environments where, um, you know, there's like that's how Pete and I met, right, we met working at a job together, um, on internship at the hospital. Um, how do you, how do you make friends? And so I frame it to people as friend dating. I say you know, like we got to use the same framework as romantic dating, that it takes some effort to figure out what it is that you're interested in and putting yourself in situations where there are people that are maybe like-minded or share values with you that you could cross paths with in a regular and consistent way. So I don't know, how do you kind of coach?
Speaker 2:people on this. I want to break this down from East and West Coast. Maybe what I find I'll be curious if you see this. So what I find from the East Coast is New York. I've always said this. From the East coast is New York. I've always said this New York is the city of the next like the next best apartment, the next best romantic partner you know, and so I think that that kind of challenges people to then really be vulnerable and to kind of do the things it takes to like build friendships you don't already have those which you and I do from childhood and early.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:To be thankful for, but I think for those that may be relocated to another part of the world, or if they're living somewhere where they're, you know, their childhood friends are not close by, they struggle to have it.
Speaker 1:So I think is that similar in the West coast, where you know, it's funny, it's like what you're saying echoes like similar thing. When people are talking to me about places that they think that are hard to date romantically and look, I, I always say like, look, obviously every city, every place that you are is going to have its own flavor of like strengths and struggles, but I kind of think they're the like, it's the same themes wherever you are. And so you know la which is, you know where I live and where I'm from. That's another story that's here about. It's about the next right. I don't know if that's like a story necessarily like, say, in seattle or san francisco or austin or something like that, but, um, so you know, there's probably like some elements of like new york and la being similar in that vibe.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, having obviously there's like that makes sense it's like you know, entertainment and it's like the quote-unquote beautiful people kind of thing but um, but I think like when I've worked with people and they're moving to somewhere rural or to a smaller town, it's like I actually think that what I'm suggesting or talking about is the same whether you're living in a major city like los angeles or new york, or whether you're living in a major city like Los Angeles or New York, or whether you're moving to a smaller, more intimate community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, cool, that makes sense, and I think that's sort of how we first met too, because I've said that before, it was the first thing I said to you. I was like I was bad talking LA yeah.
Speaker 1:I was not happy about it. Bad talking LA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was not happy about it, but thankfully you didn't let it get to you.
Speaker 1:I didn't shut. No, I was like you know, I didn't shut him down, I did not shut, I did not shut feet down. I did need, I did need you, I did, I did need you. I know we did, we need each other. We need each other Also, not, um, also not. You know, at least at that at the this time in in life, uh la is like it's cool again, but there was a long time where it was.
Speaker 2:It was very popular to sort of uh, you know crap on it, but anyways, yeah, um wait, I wanted to say so in new york I. There's that the next thing. So similar to la. But the other thought I have is that I think maybe we're at this part in our career too, where some of our clients are in like a similar demographic or anyway, because as you reach midlife which we also did the episode on that.
Speaker 2:It was an episode or two ago. These things become more challenging because you're so set in your ways that it's harder to like find new ways, and that's what I. One of the things that with my clients is like finding ways. Like you talked about similarities like how do you even interact? Who have the same similarities.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, well, okay, so, um, I will. I'm going to throw out some practical suggestions because I'll say what you're, what you're acknowledging is true, but I actually will say that that starts in people's 20s. Like this is a really common thing I talk to about with my patients, the patients that are in their twenties, because, um, you know, that time it can be kind of shocking because if there's somebody that has followed, you know, kind of a traditional trajectory of schooling, right, where they've, like, went to graduate, high school, then went to college, um, you know, maybe they go to grad school or not, but like, they definitely maybe went to college, and then they're like out in the world and they're like, how am I supposed to make friends? And nowadays, again, like, most jobs are remote. So I think it's actually similar across age demographics a lot of times as well.
Speaker 1:Um, so what I start with with folks is I start by focusing on, like, what are you like? What are you about? Like, what are you interested? What are your values? So it's like we want to start by helping you engage in something that, if the worst thing that happens is you're doing something that you really love doing right then then that's that's okay.
Speaker 1:Okay so, so that's so like interest. So I threw a lot of things. I'll say these are just something I'll use, use some more Los Angeles based ones. But I'll say like do you like being in the like? Do you like surfing? Do you like playing volleyball? Do you like rock climb? I mean, these are you know?
Speaker 1:So then I know people might be thinking like, oh no, like I don't like anything. So I'll say like, are you this might sound silly but very popular, one common one I've heard across the coast like some kind of art, like, do you like pottery making? Do you like going to book readings? Do you? Are you interested in political causes? Are you interested in like, do you see how, like there's? It's just like what speaks to you it's.
Speaker 1:So it could be both like activities, things you're interested in, but it it doesn't have to be like an exercise, cooking, it could be learning a language, anything that you feel connected to.
Speaker 1:And what I like about these kinds of activities is that you know. Then you can start to think about if what you're wanting to do is meet people you know cause, like, let's say, someone's like I love reading and I'm like okay, awesome. Well, I love reading too, but, like, unless you're part of, like, a book club or you're going to readings, like you're just doing it as a solitary activity, so you can do that. But if part of it is friend dating or romantic dating for that matter, we want to put you around other humans that you may cross paths with and connect with. So then I'll say I want you to look up some activities where it's something that you're doing with consistency. So if you just drop into a book reading once a month, I mean maybe you'll meet somebody there, but there's not an opportunity to build something. Versus if you join a weekly like book club. Every week you're seeing the same people and there's an opportunity to build something.
Speaker 2:So go ahead afraid to do these things. You know like I'm thinking about.
Speaker 1:I've had some grown men, you know like super successful, and they're like afraid of the vulnerability of being at a place, maybe by themselves I think, because it's just what we've talked about endless times on this podcast, which is like it's scary to be vulnerable, it's scary to do something new. Nobody, in this case. It's like no one wants to be rejected. Like even if you you know, obviously, if you're struggling with social anxiety, these things will be particularly difficult, right, but even if you don't have social anxiety, you know it's like it can feel awkward. Like what if no one, you know the mind, says all kinds of stuff? What if no one talks to me? What if I say the wrong thing? What if, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:So I wait, I love that you just said that in the uh at the beginning of this, where you said worst case scenario you end up doing something that you enjoy.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, Well, cause, and that's the it's like, and it's starting from that place of like, you know it's, it's nourishing to you. And so what I often share with people as well is that, look, obviously, practically, if you're wanting to build relationships, friendships or romantic ones, of course it's going to require, um, you know, some interpersonal skill. And if you got something, if you're not as strong in that, you may need some support from a therapist or a friend or someone to help you learn how to do some of those things. But I do think and this maybe I'm curious if, like, there's any kind of Eastern, you know, philosophy component that is woven in here, but I think of kind of the spiritual, in that, you know, when we are connecting to something meaningful, it's like that inner light gets turned on and it's attractive to other people, you know. So it's like you're not doing it to attract, you're doing it for you. But a nice benefit is, like, people want to, like, come towards that warm light. Know, that's pretty cheesy way of saying it it's not, I love it.
Speaker 2:It's, uh, it's, it's aura, you know it's it is energy, and it is from the east. And what I? What came to mind, as you said, that is, we are always trying, like sangha, you know when you uh.
Speaker 2:So a lot of times, a lot of my clients uh, shocker, uh end up wanting to or seeking kind of a meditative journey, and so I'll guide them gently, you know, and then I'm always encouraging them to find a community like close to them. You know, and what we, what we learn in the Buddhist teachings is that the Sangha is what really brings us strength or light, like you said, you know, because you can, and after like a session which is a longer sitting period. So if we do like two or three or four day silent retreat afterwards, I always remember those moments where you'd sit and just chat with people and they would be, they're like thank you so much for your sitting and you helped me on day two because my back was hurting and just just the being, just being there with people and sitting is really helpful so that's the community piece of this, which is exactly what you're talking about and foundation of.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the things. What we say is we take refuge. We take refuge in the buddha, dharma and sangha. The idea of like, there's this being and there's this sort of the buddha is the suffering, and so the universal suffering.
Speaker 1:Dharma are the teachings, that kind of help you release these things, and the song is a community, and that's exactly what we try and do with with uh, you know, that's the way that I frame it for some of the adult dating that's very cool, pete, yeah, I mean, I look so I think like if, for folks listening, it's like maybe trying to like connect to this idea of you know, trusting that when you are engaged with something meaningful to you and you're, with consistency and commitment, doing that thing and showing up to a community, it's like there's it's, I hope, building an inherent trust in that friendships will blossom from that.
Speaker 2:You know what is the role of social media in this doctor.
Speaker 1:That's a good question. Well, you know, I think it's going to depend right, because, again, and obviously Pete and I talk, you and I talk a lot about like the downsides of social media, but there can be obviously some helpful uses to it. Like I know, especially since the pandemic, there's been kind of an explosion of like you know, so does the kids say in real life, irl? You know that's what the kids, the kids like to call it in real, in real life, yeah, no big deal. Yeah, I mean, I obviously obviously not as well, really, really rolled off my tongue, so naturally there, so you know, but there's been an explosion of of kind of like meetups, you know, like coffee, like in LA, for example, there's a lot of. There's been like networking things, coffee clubs, like you know, because people just want to be around other like-minded people. Um, and social media is a way that these things are often advertised. So, you know, I think, look that it can be helpful. It can be a helpful way to sort of learn about opportunities, find events in in your area. Um, you know, there's obviously going to be some.
Speaker 1:There's some people that have um very special like online communities of friends that they have and, um, you know, we don't want to discount those, um, but I also always say, you know, humans do need to be around other humans. So even, yeah, so even folks that you know do well, you know, in online communities and maybe struggle with you know, whatever it is interpersonally that's difficult for them and they feel safety connecting in that way. I mean I support that and I also would encourage those folks to, you know, also be in the world with other people. We do need them, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm wondering are there any other like in the friend dating realm, like, is there any? You know, I've thrown out a number of sort of ways that I like to um coach people. Are there any other practical suggestions you have for listeners?
Speaker 2:A few things come to mind. Shocker one uh, there was this video recently on tiktok that showed uh like how kids don't have inherent fear. You know, and we know that obviously, because we, what is that?
Speaker 1:uh, little albert right like oh yeah, yeah well, but that's not totally true. Kids do have inherent fear. Well, they have less of they have less of their living organ, I mean right so there's, there's. Yeah, we do have, we do have, we do have inherent fear, otherwise we would you know like babies cry when they're scared, you know yeah, right, and a baby would put their hand on a fire or just jump off of a ladder certain things correct.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so, yeah, what I? I say that to say because they um, and and there was this, there's um. One of the sporting things I was watching had this commercial. It was like so brilliant. That was like showing kids just giving adults ideas on how to like live more fully. You know, play in the sand and like do silly things Cause you know you and I have definitely will encourage that like, yeah, it's okay to identify the barriers, you know and so I think that's always helpful from a behavioral perspective to see what is.
Speaker 2:Yes, you know someone from doing it now, usually with the adults I work with and probably you. They have a busier schedule right that's just in part of that's adulting more responsibilities you're at home or bills or things like that. Social anxiety, uh, you know, we definitely see an uptick in that.
Speaker 1:And then, like, I think that as we get older we get a little more introverted, because even some of my clients that are super extroverted, um, it's not serving them in the same way that it once did where they're like you know, a bender used to be fun for them, you know, and then you get to just you're just more tired, more tired, I mean it's like which doesn't necessarily be more introverted it could be, but like it's also just sometimes like energy, I think, right, like you're just like you know, like I don't want to stay out till two in the morning. I gotta go to work tomorrow, you know. So yeah, like yeah, so I totally agree with that. Yeah so. And then you know work friends is something you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, like yeah, so I totally agree with that, yeah so and then you know, work, friends is something you know, you're trying to like open your horizon. So sometimes it's a dating perspective, like if you had, you know, 25 to 35 of your age range, make it 23 to 36, you know, or like something just to kind of stretch the limit a little bit but have it on friend but but have a friend dating though, cause I think it's interesting we're talking about that.
Speaker 1:I mean these things do overlap, but I think, like with friend dating, people get a little. I mean, I know people there's like you can do friend dating, I think, on some of the dating apps but but people get a little more stuck Cause it's like with dating dating there's more of a script around what to do, and I think with friend dating that's where people are like uh, like well what I meant in that was just to be be more broad and diverse and flexible about how you think, okay, yes, who could be okay, see, that's helpful, see, that's very helpful, yes, okay.
Speaker 2:So in your head.
Speaker 1:If I'm an athlete, I have I have the idea that my friends are only athletes, for example, as one example, right versus like or my friends are only athletes for example, as one example, right Versus like or my friends are only a certain age, even to what?
Speaker 2:you're saying Correct, and I think just having some flexibility around that and that's what you and I do with relational frame theory and ACT and things like that of just like how do I create the psychological cognitive flexibility that it might and it kind of goes back to our last episode on the first noble truth.
Speaker 1:Like it goes back to the expectations of what these yes dating are supposed to be. Yes, yes, okay, that's so cool. No, those are.
Speaker 2:Those are fantastic you know, yeah, and then I, you know, I always encourage them to like, find I won't. I just did give one person my zendo, actually, because I just trust that person so much yeah, um but I'll just encourage them to go like look for a zendo or look for a yoga studio or somewhere in their area where they can kind of find a meditation or yoga or some other type of spirit kind of sure, sure, sure, well, and, and, and you know it doesn't have to be spiritual.
Speaker 1:so I was just thinking, I was thinking, as you're saying, it's like we'll find the dog park in the neighborhood that you go to you know what I'm saying or the coffee shop you go to every morning and you know the people there, you know.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, like there's it's about, I think, the things you and I are saying today. It's like some of the themes are it's connecting to what's meaningful to you and it's about consistency and then also taking risks, right, being vulnerable, putting yourself out there in some way, um, and, and I think also people, it's important for them to hear, like, just like in romantic dating, building friendships, doesn't it? It doesn't happen overnight, you know. So you know every now and then you know some people like it is sort of like, um, a friend love at first sight, which we're kind of friends, we, yeah, we were kind of friend love at first sight, um, and that can happen and that's a delight, but a lot of times, relationships build over time. So, um, if you are somebody who, uh, is looking to expand your friend group, try friend dating.
