When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E18 The Power of a Nuanced Mindset
Ever wondered why we tend to see the world in black-and-white terms? Discover the hidden complexities of our thought processes and learn how embracing nuance can transform how you understand reality and connect with others. In this thought-provoking episode, we explore the limits of binary thinking and introduce you to the concept of dialectical thinking—holding two opposing ideas at once. We draw inspiration from cognitive and behavioral therapies, meditation, and Eastern spiritual traditions like Buddhism to guide you on a journey towards a more nuanced mindset. This shift not only sharpens your perception of the world but also nurtures deeper compassion for yourself and others.
Our conversation takes a closer look at why embracing nuance is crucial, especially in today's polarized world. We explore the developmental journey of recognizing and appreciating nuance, especially among younger individuals such as college students, and ponder why some adults remain stuck in rigid thinking patterns. With a focus on personal growth and the importance of broadening our perspectives, we challenge you to step out of your comfort zone and actively seek diverse viewpoints. By cultivating nuance, you open the door to meaningful interactions and a richer, more authentic connection with the world around you.
So, pete, we're going to talk about one of my most favorite things today, which is nuance. I love nuance.
Speaker 2:You're so smart.
Speaker 1:That makes me smart to love nuance, you think.
Speaker 2:I mean said nobody ever who is walking around saying I love nuance.
Speaker 1:I think it makes me more of a dork than smart, but those could go together.
Speaker 2:I guess those could go together. You're both actually.
Speaker 1:I am, I'm both.
Speaker 2:I'm both. You're a really pretty smart dork.
Speaker 1:It's very kind. Thank you, it's very kind.
Speaker 2:In the recent episode, we were talking about barbecuing and I immediately had the vision of you barbecuing and I was like that would be so dope vision of you barbecuing.
Speaker 1:And I was like that would be so dope. I do love barbecuing. I am scared of somehow the gas just exploding on me but yeah, which shouldn't doesn't surprise me in knowing the things that I like to be careful about, but but yeah so let's talk about nuance. Well, so I guess I'll start by saying, because I said I love nuance, like how do you feel about nuance before? We kind of jump into it.
Speaker 2:I feel very indifferent, I feel like it's a bunch of letters. Yeah, well, that's fascinating to me. I don't really feel any kind of way about it. I think I enjoy looking at things from different perspectives.
Speaker 1:I like when things are nuanced, but I don't think I would get as excited as you just got. Well, you know it's fine. See, I'm going to, I'm going to, um, I'm going to gently challenge you here to say like I bet by the end of this episode. I bet by the end of this episode yeah, here we go yeah. You, you actually will feel as excited because I know you and I actually know that you love nuance as much as me.
Speaker 2:But maybe you just haven't framed it.
Speaker 1:Well, it's much more nuanced, layered, than that, right? So let me start by explaining why, Because I think, as I start to talk about it more, I think you're going to go. Oh yeah, actually that's my jam.
Speaker 2:And if you're not watching, she just keeps winking at me. I just want you all to know that.
Speaker 1:I do, that's my, that's my. If you're not watching, she just keeps winking at me. I just want you all to know that I do involuntarily, frankly, it's so, it's so, yeah, so well, so, okay. So nuance, look, we always talk about with patients, right, and we talk about this podcast. Our human brains are not good at nuance, I don't know like at all. Like the way that we're wired is towards very rigid, very black and white, very linear um thinking and this is, frankly, like the crux of what we um target in cognitive and behavioral therapies and what eastern spiritual traditions like buddhism, which we talk a lot about in this podcast, also target. Right, because we're saying the way that we try to experience the world in this very like good, bad, right, wrong, up down, left, right kind of way doesn't align with what reality is.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:With me so far.
Speaker 2:I'm with you. Yeah, I'm with you because I'm with you. I'm with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause, what were you going to say? We were going to ask.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean reality, I mean, so I what I'm hearing is a lot of perspective and nuance.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, well, reality is very complex.
Speaker 2:Reality is we still haven't done those episodes. On what complexity consciousness and reality.
Speaker 1:Consciousness, yeah well, we're kind of we're, we're stepping into it a little bit today, I think right so yeah we're stepping into, which I actually I think we step into another episodes as well, like you know that reality is is quite varied and diverse and complicated and confusing and murky and all of these things. And you know our brains really don't like that. You know, like I kind of sometimes simply say to people like look like brains like either, or because binaries are easy to process, they're easier to process versus processing 17 pieces of information at once, even if the 17 pieces of information are actually what exists in front of us. And so you know being able to cultivate, you know dialectical thinking, as we talk a lot about holding two opposite things at the same time. Electrical thinking, as we talk a lot about holding two opposite things at the same time. Being able to take in information that contradicts what we believe or like right, being able to put ourselves in other points of view and perspectives.
Speaker 1:That all contributes to cultivating the ability to observe and connect to nuance the ability to observe and connect to nuance, and when we're there in that space, we're so much better able to not only experience reality but, I think, like be more compassionate to others and ourselves. You know that, but it's not something that we're just not good at it. And then this, in the current, um cultural era that we live in, nuance is, you know, frankly, sometimes it's almost like demonized, you know, like we want. So I don't know, as I'm saying this like I don't know, getting more excited.
Speaker 2:I mean, do I could lie to you and tell you that I'm going to get more excited?
Speaker 1:just so you feel?
Speaker 2:good. No, what's coming to mind for me is I just see myself meditating because I think, like that's where I feel, like I've built a relationship with nuance, you know, because, to your point, because I think, because everything is so binary in life and just the brain likes that meditation, and this is what we talked about in CBT of like middle path from that meditation, and this is what we talked about in cbt of like middle path from that.
Speaker 1:Um oh no, that's actually zen middle path, yes, but we bought comes from buddhism, we borrow, I mean the third wave, cbt for me it's, it's like I.
Speaker 2:I forget which world it comes from, because yes, yeah, so much, yeah, yeah so that middle path is what I feel like we're talking about. It was like there's 17 pieces that come together like you're able to process them in a way nonjudgmentally to experience, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and it's like you know, I, I'll say like we all, we all want there to be like an answer the right way you know, you know, we all, I have that urge, like we all do right, we want someone to tell us, like this is the right way to do it, this is the right way to be a person, this is the right way to think, or or this topic, think of any controversial topic, you know that may exist. It's like no, there's a right and a wrong, there's a moral answer and an immoral answer and it's just like no, it's no, there's not there's. You know, there's infinite ways to be alive, there's infinite ways to be a person, there's infinite perspectives and, you know, cultivating the ability to observe nuance really frees a person up to interact with the world as it is more skillfully and, again, more compassionately, because, again, when we're in that binary mode, we're inherently accessing and practicing judgment right, and that's where we start to disconnect from others.
Speaker 2:Do you think that the nuance leads to compassion? Do you think that there's any kind of bi-directional relationship between those two?
Speaker 1:I think bi-directional is a great word. I think they, I think they are part of one another. I don't think they exist without the other. Right, like if we're practicing compassion for ourselves and others, like we're inherently recognizing, like the fallibility of humans. Right, we're recognizing that people make mistakes and that, like you know, people might, for example, do something or say something hurtful and also be a good person at the same time.
Speaker 1:That requires nuance, right, yeah, but that's like if but if we want to stick to a narrative of, you know, good people never hurt anyone's feelings or do anything wrong like we're, we're lacking nuance there, right, and so, and the more nuanced we can be, there's more we can see the grays and, you know like, we're more able to have space to practice compassion for others. I mean, I don't know do you? Agree with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that we and I'm sitting here thinking about, like other uses of the word nuance, because I think we're saying it so behaviorally, uh, which I love, because I don't know that I wonder if non-psychologists think of this word in the same way I think they do.
Speaker 1:I think because I feel like I read like. I read a lot of like, you know, I feel like when I'm reading like especially against the current era where there's not a lot of room for nuance, I I've, I've read a lot of, you know, like opinion articles and things of people from different disciplines, like you know, maybe like philosophical, you know, historians, like people that are writers that kind of thing, talking about the lack of nuance and how and how.
Speaker 1:That's so, you know, at at at best unhelpful, at worst dangerous, you know. So I nuance, you know it just means being able to be in, in, in a place where you hold contradictory truths, you know, and see like there's shades of things. You know it's not, there's not just a right answer or wrong answer, and I'm sure there's a lot of listeners maybe right now hearing me thinking, nope, nikki's wrong. You know there's a right. There are things that are right or wrong.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell them that Nikki's not wrong, because I was just pulling up the Miriam Webster dictionary and it's so crazy, because this is how smart my co-host is. So the the one of the definitions is sensibility to, awareness of, or the ability to express delicate shadings, boom and then of, either meaning, feeling or value. Boom and then of either meaning feeling or value. Mm-hmm, yeah, there you have it listeners.
Speaker 1:You have at least one smart co-host I think they've got two.
Speaker 2:I think they've got two. Here They've got two. Well, I'm still sitting here thinking about other uses of the word, because I'm thinking people always say nuanced, like a curriculum that's nuanced.
Speaker 1:But it all means the same thing. It means like that things have shades, that it's not just one meaning or one way of saying it. And again, I'm going to keep repeating today our brains don't like that, you know. It's like you know we want there just to be like one answer, or like you know it's coming to. It's like I'm thinking you know we want we want there just to be like one answer, or like you know it's coming to. It's like I'm thinking you know we've done episodes on righteousness before and we all get righteous about things, sometimes very human Right, and there's certain like stages of development where we tend to be more righteous, like when we're in our teens or early twenties, and I always I use this example of patience a lot I always think about.
Speaker 1:I don't remember what it was about, frankly, but I remember coming home from college and like, and my parents and I, we share a similar ideological viewpoint, so it wasn't like it's not like something. I don't know what it was, but I came home and I was so righteous about something. It was like no nuance of what I was saying. And then, even like five years later, I remember like recounting that to my parents and telling them I was so embarrassed, like I was like I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry that was. They were like, no, it was okay, like you were more black and white at that time, you know, but it's like I missed. I was missing. I was missing the nuance, right, I was missing the nuance and they were.
Speaker 2:They were trying to help me see it. Your brain probably wasn't even able to see it. I mean, that's that's. I think the beautiful thing about human development is that, uh, so one of my 11 year old nieces goddaughters, whatever she is like, oh, she knows everything. I mean, it's, it's wild, it's like there's zero nuance. It's like her mom was like you know, go ahead, what, what, what?
Speaker 1:Oh well, I was going to say well, but like it's so interesting. We're talking about, like being younger, like an 11 year old, or like when I was, like a college student, or whatever, but like, Like I'm curious what you think about what's happening now for like fully formed adults who are not practicing They've got no excuses. Well, they do, but like it's, you know, the excuses are like you know, they're consuming information or media that just aligns with a worldview that they have.
Speaker 2:Well, that's right. Yeah, we've talked about that in our digital detox episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, because you got to mess with the algorithm.
Speaker 2:No one's going to look. The people that need to do that aren't going to do that. No which? But hey, I challenge you out there. If you're one of those people and you know it, just try to challenge. Yeah, I think that some of the stuff we talk about is because you and I have done our own work on ourselves and then we work with people all the times around this, and so we have a more kind of robust idea of what it takes to get to a place to have difficult conversations, to feel uncomfortable. You know to recognize when I'm not being nuanced. You know that's. You can't just automatically be nuanced. I mean, it's a process.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it takes, no, it takes practice, though I guess I'll say that what came to my mind was like but you don't have to be a psychologist to be able to do that, you don't have to be a Zen practitioner to do it. That's so like, that's where you know, I think that sometimes people feel scared off from trying to cultivate that Cause it's like it's just too hard. I just want to be right. Like this is they're just wrong or stupid or bad, and it's like and I'm better and good, and it's like well, you know no, no no, like, how do, how do we, um, how do we willingly start to, uh, you know, try to see the shades of things?
Speaker 1:Um, and it takes effort for sure. But I, I guess I wouldn't want listeners to like, oh my gosh, it's this mountain to climb. It's like, no, you can, you can start. Like now, you can start in small ways. It's like, do you have a conversation with somebody that you have a disagreement about? Can you hear their side of the story?
Speaker 2:Right. You know, and that's like you said. It's going to be really hard for a lot of people because it's it's okay, but but yeah, it takes small steps. You know a lot of stuff coming back to you know you have to have pain to grow. You know, we've talked about in a recent episode. You know this is what this is like. It's not just going to be easy to be this, like you know, really compassionate, caring you know, human being with, you know, nuanced perspective.
Speaker 2:I mean it takes time and well, okay. So I'm thinking a listener might say well, what, why? Why should I do that? You know, like, what's, what's the benefit of that? Like, why do I need to do that?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what I would answer to somebody saying that to me is like well, if you want to connect in this world and you want to connect with other people and people that you love, it's kind of a requisite skill, you know, because the world isn't just made up of clones of ourselves, right, like we're constantly, you know, going to be encountering, um, you know, different points of view, different ways of doing things.
Speaker 1:Like you know, even if you're, you know, even if you work really hard to be around people that are very much like you in lots of ways, even then you're going to, you're, different humans. You're going to have different experiences and different thoughts and different emotions and different strengths and limitations. And so, you know, being able to again cultivate the skill of nuance, which then, as we're saying, is a part of cultivating compassion. It cracks open space to connect and you know, like Pete, you and I was, it's like, it's kind of like, you know, like, isn't that why we're here, whatever it was like? Yeah, hopefully it's like, and if we don't, that's what there is. Being a person is very hard. If you want to connect, this is a part of doing that.
Speaker 2:I love that. Being a person is hard.
Speaker 1:Being a person is hard. I say it all the time being a person is very hard. A person is hard being a person. So I say it all the time being a person is very hard. Well, so, I think for listeners today, you know, if you, um, if you can just take from this episode that, um, you know, nuance is a challenge, yes, it is a challenge, and it's a challenge that doesn't go away. Um, it's also something that you can strengthen and cultivate, and if you're willing to just take a first step, to take an information, perspective, experience that is different than your own, you're on your way.
