When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E17 Rethinking Thankfulness in Holiday Times
What if the secret to a more abundant life lies in something as simple as gratitude? Join us as we embark on a thoughtful exploration of gratitude's complex nature, especially as we approach the holiday season. We'll unravel the subtle distinctions between gratitude, thankfulness, and appreciation, and discuss how cultural practices and lifestyle choices, such as abstaining from alcohol and caffeine, can foster mental clarity and a deeper sense of gratitude. With insights drawn from both psychology and Eastern philosophy, we recognize that connecting with gratitude isn't always straightforward, particularly during challenging times.
During our conversation, we question the pressures to feel thankful during the holidays and stress the importance of self-validation amidst cultural expectations. By acknowledging our genuine emotions, we can more authentically appreciate the small joys in life, like a warm meal or a moment of rest. We'll share personal reflections and studies that highlight how gratitude, though not a cure-all, can contribute to mood improvement and personal growth. Ending on a high note, we share an inspiring quote from Oprah Winfrey, reminding us that focusing on what we have can lead us to feel truly abundant, leaving behind the scarcity mindset. Embrace gratitude on your own terms and discover how it can transform your life.
I am so thankful for you.
Speaker 2:Oh, I am so thankful for you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's puke.
Speaker 2:Say, I'm loving your intros into the topics these days, so please let our listeners know what the topic of today on, we Need to Be Sueses.
Speaker 1:They already know it's gratitude. Well, so wait from like English, cause you're smart. Like gratitude, by definition, is like is that a synonym of thanks and thankful?
Speaker 2:I mean I would say yes, correct, Thankful, um, you know we could. I think it starts to get a little thinner when we get into like appreciation but like yeah, synonym for thankful. It's like there's a I mean obviously we'll start talking about this today. You know, there's like a depth to gratitude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so a depth of gratitude, and you're always good at breaking that stuff down, and so we are going to break it down. Holiday season's upon us, you know some of it's like shoved down our throats a little bit about having to be thankful and all that stuff, and so we will see that how this shows up from a psychological perspective, how the East kind of use gratitude and so okay, let's start with you. So what are you most thankful for?
Speaker 2:I feel like that's a I'm chuckling too, cause I feel like that's when you just said like oh, it often gets like shoved down our throats and I'm thinking you know the reason they're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, answer me right now.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, and then for you know, people listening that aren't in the states, because you know we actually do have some quite a lot of international listeners here. It's because it's about to be american thanksgiving and so that's often a a question that you know people like to ask around, like the Thanksgiving table, and I think maybe I'll start. I mean, I don't have like a one thing I'm most grateful for. You know, it's like there's lots of things I always think it's kind of funny when people have that framework like what are you most grateful for? It kind of reminds me of, like, when people I'm not, it's not not knocking you here, pete, just like human stuff.
Speaker 2:When people take values and stack them right Like this is my most important value.
Speaker 1:And it's like well there's so much.
Speaker 2:It's like everything's on the same plane, and so there's lots of things I have gratitude for and you know what I connect to in terms of what I feel thankful about, I actually feel like that can vary day to day. You know what I feel thankful about. I actually feel like that can vary day to day. You know like there's so I don't know like today. I'll say frankly, I'm gratitude, I'm gratitude, I'm grateful. Excuse me, I'm actually grateful for my health today.
Speaker 2:Feeling healthy, yes, like yeah, but but in a like simple way, like like I was working with somebody who was telehealth but they were like very like feeling really sick and it's like whenever I noticed that, it reminds me like, oh my gosh, I'm so grateful, like I feel well today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Uh, well, as you. So some people I thought you were going to say some people would say, oh, dr Rubin is just avoiding the question and uh, I had that thought but the truth is I wouldn't have even known what I would have answered.
Speaker 2:Cause like as you were talking in my head, I'm like wait, wait, what she's gonna ask me what am I? Gonna say oh, that's funny. Yeah, no, the funny thing is no, I wasn't avoiding it, it's more just the like. It doesn't the context like I. Yeah, I think it doesn't. I just like I don't vibe with that sort of like.
Speaker 2:It's this one thing you know like I um, and I think that when it's, it's just interesting like that, that's like the pull, we all have to kind of frame things that way, like this is the best or the worst. It's just like there's so many things in that varies Cause also. I think you know, um, I would like to turn the question over to you as well, but I think we should talk in a moment about how it can actually be really hard to connect to gratitude, like you know, and.
Speaker 2:I've had that experience and and I know that comes up a lot in therapy. So I think that question sometimes like what are you most grateful for, actually can activate the opposite, where people are like I don't know, I don't feel grateful at all right now.
Speaker 1:Right, Well, I am grateful for you. No, and my health? No. I'm going to steal your answer. Well, when you said that, when you said that, I thought the complete opposite, because, from an Eastern perspective, I'm the worst patient. When I'm sick, I just crawl up. You see these memes where the guy is sitting there with lots of tissues.
Speaker 2:Oh sure, yeah, I believe it's referred to as a quote-unquote man cold, I believe yeah.
Speaker 1:So that all resonates with me. But I really have committed. I started to do this thing where I was limiting. Well, I did a month or two of no alcohol, no cheese and no sugar and I really felt so good. And a when I first started studying Buddhism I didn't drink for like two years, you know cause I and that's when I stopped eating meat and sort of taking some of these steps around like thinking about, you know, food and drink all that stuff.
Speaker 1:The thing about the East, they're not like anti fun but, even caffeine is like seen as mind altering, and so the goal is to like not alter your mind. Caffeine is, like, seen as mind altering and so the goal is to like, not alter your mind okay, I drink coffee and I drink intermittently.
Speaker 1:Socially sure, um, but uh so. But recently the no alcohol and then the cheese also from. Like chinese medicine, eastern philosophy is uh, inflammatory. A lot of dairy is seen as inflammation and moisture. They look at your tongue and kind of um, how moist your body is, and my body's moist okay, yes, wait, but come where's. Where's the gratitude part health I was saying well and because?
Speaker 1:so, as a result of these behaviors, nikki behaviors, yes, yes, uh-huh along with my values of well-being I've actually, like you know, cut some weight and I feel good in my body for the first time in a while, where you know I would always want to have like lots of clothes on and sweats. And now I'm okay with, you know, going into the pool and feeling a little bit more confident, like a little pep in my step A little pep in your step.
Speaker 2:Okay, a little pep in your step. I like that. I like that. You know what's funny as you're talking to, though, it's like again, I'm like sometimes, like when we're having these conversations, I think about like, where is where do people push back? Or where have I pushed back in my own mind, you know? And it's like I'm thinking, oh so you and I talking about something, that we're talking about feeling gratitude for our health and in this moment, right, so I think there's probably a listener going. Okay, so, being grateful for something, it means it has to be something that feels pleasurable or good in my body, or that I like.
Speaker 2:And you know no, and it's like I would love to hear your thoughts about, because I've certainly had this experience personally, when you experience gratitude for something that is difficult.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, recently I had a session with a client who had this is an athlete who was in a relationship and he had a bunch of stuff happening at once, like losses in the family and some significant things, and in that moment his girlfriend of a long time decided to end the relationship. Which, how do you make sense of that, right? His rational brain was like really, could she have waited? You know, like, um, and so what we did was, uh, and it and it did like have a little hint and flare of toxic positivity, um, because it was like what we tried to shift to the the you know gratitude for her for doing it, because she had been sort of lying to him and not being truthful, and you know there is no right time for those types of things to happen and that actually really helped him just to take that shift. And you know, in a small way from my Zen work, like when I get cut off and I'm driving, I'm thankful for that person to do that because I'm like I get to practice this mindfulness, zen stuff.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. Yeah, it's like well, like, I think I think what you're sharing here is that, like, when we go through something difficult, oftentimes what we have access to is, you know, an opportunity to learn and to grow. And sometimes, you know by the way, I should say not sometimes, when we're going through it, we don't feel grateful.
Speaker 2:I certainly don't feel grateful when I'm going through something painful. However, later, once I've experienced the growth from that, I look back and say like I look, I wish that hadn't have happened to me. I'm not happy that I went through that and yet I'm I'm oddly grateful for it because I'm I'm different now, you know yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, cause it's growth. And so in the world of sports we say there's growing pains, you know. And so, as an adolescent, as you're growing, there's actual pains, and so, in order to grow, you have to have pain.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:None of us want it, but go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, exactly. I mean I say that I actually, like will literally call back to people, like when they're kids. I'll say like do you remember having growing pains Like in the night? You know that feeling it's like growth is literally painful, and so, you know, gratitude is a really, it's a really powerful value and, frankly, I don't know if you there's like an I feel like it as an emotion as well, like um feeling grateful, um it's really really potent, um in terms of, um reframing some of the experiences that um a person goes through, um, that are difficult, cause it's like you know, again, what's the main theme that we talk about here on this podcast, right?
Speaker 1:Hard stuff is going to happen, right Like hard stuff is going to show up.
Speaker 2:Um so can't you make it go away? I'm always like I wish you know, I wish I, and actually the unfortunate thing is our brains will keep trying to do that. Our brains are going to keep trying to figure out ways to to make it go away. Um, pete, I'm wondering if, wondering if you can talk a little bit about some of the research about gratitude, because there's such fascinating research about people who practice gratitude regularly, like it's an active practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, One study that I often cite because I think it's helpful for clients. It was like a two-part study, but they looked at actually Zen practitioners. They were monks, but they looked at actually Zen practitioners. They're monks and when they practice gratitude for their wisdom teeth they did not swell up or have the kind of post-surgical pain that a lot of people have fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, I've never heard that I haven't heard that saying yeah yeah, so it's.
Speaker 1:and and there was like another part of that study where these, these same monks were able to dry like wet towels off their backs, like in the middle of cold winter, because just the idea of like how much, how powerful the mind is is what this research, all this research tells us the mind is powerful, and so you don't always have to think positively, you don't have to be thankful for every person that cuts you off and, you know, hurts you. It's not like someone's going to be sitting at like a trial, you know, of somebody that murdered their children, and be like, oh, I'm very thankful that I have. You know, it's not like this absolute sort of way. It's a process, and the process of trying to practice gratitude in the face of pain, you know, or joy, allows for us to grow, and I imagine I don't know neurologically there's going to be some, I would imagine, some shifts in a lot of like the amygdala, the emotional regulation center, like other places where we can feel more connected to people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I'm not aware of research about that, but I would imagine that as well, because it is regulating emotionally right, like I I mean and this was years ago with the study, but there was some study about people that like practice, like I wrote like a gratitude journal every day for like 30 days and you know, and then rewriting their mood. You know it was the mood at the beginning, mood at the end, and that their moods were tend to be, on average, improved by the end of the month, even though their, their lives, like you know, day to day, weren't like categorically changed in any kind of way. You know, and so, yeah, I think it's, it's important. What you're saying is like it's not about being positive. So that's what you know. If we go back to what we're saying, like I think people can mishear, gratitude is it has to be something that feels good. It's like, you know, it's just connecting to something, even something very small, where you feel a connection to you read my brain.
Speaker 1:Oh, really Cool, yes, yeah yeah, it can be really small. We would be walking on the streets in New York Like you could practice gratitude for someone you're just walking by, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, you know what I'm saying. You can't do that in LA, so easily. We do, we do you know? I know there's a song called nobody walks in la. Some of it's true.
Speaker 1:We do drive a lot, but we do walk up.
Speaker 2:We are outside quite a bit, though. We do we walk in our neighborhoods. We walk in our neighborhoods, um, but yeah, no, you can, you can absolutely do that, and I I always think about one time I was working with somebody who wanted to like start having like a gratitude practice and and we were going through it and they came back and said that they were grateful for barbecues, and I was like hell, yeah, me too.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm grateful for barbecues also and so it's like things. It doesn't have to be something grand or deep, it doesn't have to be something that feels good or something that's the most painful. It's like it's actually just finding something that you genuinely feel a connection to and that you're grateful. It's there and I think, like, especially when you're going through a time when it's hard to practice gratitude and again I want to come back to that because it's like when we're having a hard time, it's it's hard to be grateful, you know, and like and I've seen people then like beat themselves up for that I should. I mean, how many times I've heard I should be grateful, I should be grateful, and it's like okay, well, maybe we can't access gratitude yet. Maybe first we need to just make room to acknowledge, like, this time is hard, this is painful.
Speaker 2:This sucks right now, you know and like trusting that that's going to open up some space to then connect to the small things eventually.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what made me think about my diet and being sick and being a terrible patient. Just for the record, that was the context, because it's so hard to be mindful or grateful in those moments. So I'm never thankful for those moments in those moments.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 1:But I come out of it quick. I will say, though, I did recently have a little bit of a man cold, and I do get grateful to just lay down and watch TV with a blanket, because I don't do that often.
Speaker 2:Well, that's different, right. So then you're saying in that moment you feel grateful for like well, I can like slow down, I can take some space and like watch TV or whatever you know, but you're not saying in that moment I'm grateful for the cold right.
Speaker 1:No, I've never, send me never.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, so it's the same said me number as well. Um, so it's like, but like difficult, like painful experiences. Oftentimes people like later, and sometimes it's years later, right, or like I'm grateful that I had the opportunity to go through something that allowed me to evolve.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, cause that evolution is like key and it's not guaranteed, you know. Yes, exactly, and I think, uh, you know a lot of times that that stuff will will bring us there, and so, well, all right, so we're getting to the end because you and I, we just I think we just talked so fast, but do you see that there's what'd you say I do, at least I talk fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it's a known yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:But any advice you know for listeners, or like you know that you've told clients around sort of the holidays and gratitude, and you know I said I joked around like it's like shoving it down your throat, but any advice or what do you got?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say I don't think you need to go into the holidays like um, with the story that you have to be grateful for, um, the things that cultural narratives tell you should be grateful for. Maybe you're not grateful for family, by the way, maybe you're not grateful for the holiday break, I don't know. Right, it's you know. I would actually say, start with making room to, like, validate yourself and acknowledge whatever. Whatever parts are difficult, and then I would say, try to find whatever tiny thing you feel connected to that you have gratitude about. Find whatever tiny thing you feel connected to that you have gratitude about. Right, like it could be. You know you're grateful for the opportunity to eat some turkey. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Right, you know, or maybe you're grateful to get to spend time with your family, or you're grateful for the day off or whatnot, you know, um so, but but I want, I would guess I would want people to start with acknowledge what's hard. Don't, don't force yourself into to be grateful. It's like that actually shuts off your access to it, paradoxically.
Speaker 1:It's the opposite. Yeah Well, I love that. So great advice. And I'm going to end with a quote from Oprah Winfrey. You know sometimes we go really philosophical, but Oprah quote here be thankful for what you have, you'll end up having more. If you concentrate on what you don't have, you will never, ever have enough.
