When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E14 Balancing Screen Time and Serenity
What if our constant need for digital engagement is robbing us of true mental rest? Discover strategies to reclaim your peace in our latest episode, where we unravel the paradox of digital detoxing in our tech-centric lives. We dive into the necessity of finding a balance between beneficial technology use and the addictive nature of our devices. From mindfulness apps to the inevitable pull of notifications, we discuss the art of radical acceptance in understanding our usage patterns and share personal stories of navigating our digital consumption.
We delve into the illusion of control created by information overload and how it can affect our mental well-being. Highlighting the role of algorithms, we stress the importance of setting limits on content intake and the benefits of stepping away for moments of boredom and reflection. With practical tips for mindful digital detox, we discuss the impact of screen time on everything from eye health to regional differences in session durations. Join us as we encourage mindfulness in technology use, especially during hectic times, and explore the potential for a healthier, more balanced relationship with our digital lives.
so digital detox, what do you? So detox? Has this like really kind of powerful, uh, behavioral perspective on it? So let's talk about a digital and you're like, you're like the expert on digital detox well, I don't, I don't know about that.
Speaker 2:It's more, uh, you know, for people that haven't listened, I don't, I don't do social media, but I wouldn't say I digitally detox, because I do have an iphone and an ipad and many computers yeah, well, and you're smart and so you're always reading, and so you have.
Speaker 1:You use your devices to help engage with your news and all those other things yeah, yeah, as do you, right.
Speaker 2:I mean it's like so I wouldn. I mean I wouldn't say I'm good at digitally detoxing, I try, but oof.
Speaker 1:It's hard, it's bad because, like I find, I just can't get myself out of it sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know it's funny. I was just saying this to Pete right before we started filming, which was a recording. We're doing both. I guess is that I get so many questions from patients about this, like it's one of the more common things where people will come in and they'll be like, okay, like how do I get off my phone, like I'm using my phone too much, and I start by saying, okay, so you're not going to like this. But the first thing we have to do is radically accept You're going to use your phone more than you want because, like that's the world we live in. I was like same z's.
Speaker 2:I was like you know, I'm like, I'm like this is, this is something like. It's just like cars. Like you might go, like I don't want to use my car as much, like, yeah, you can, we can work on you not using your car as much and you're going to use a car because that's the like there's no, especially in la, you have to use it yes, but we have to yes, yes exactly.
Speaker 2:But think about, even in new york, like people like hell, taxis and stuff, right, even if you're not driving the car, it's like we like we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, kind of thing, you know.
Speaker 1:So I think, like the start here is it cannot put the toothpaste back in.
Speaker 2:No, I know I I did not come up with that. By the way, I've heard it before and I was like that is great, um, but I think that's true yeah, yeah, I was like I really like like that analogy, but I think that's the first thing we have to radically accept is that there's no going back to the before times. I certainly long for them and I think about the times when I just went to the post office and I was just bored, I just waited in line at the post office.
Speaker 2:But we can't do that. So it's like if we're going to learn to reduce our use, we also have to accept that it's not going to be like 1992 anymore, you know the 90s were so good.
Speaker 1:Insert some background 90s music.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I was very biased about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very biased, well, I. And so, from the eastern perspective, I'll just jump right into that because I think right now. People are often like clients or athletes I work with are looking to get some kind of mindfulness or meditation training, and there's a lot of it on these devices.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, on one hand, I'm like cool, engage with wherever you can to engage. On the other hand, you know it is impacting our brain and so let's bring it back. It is impacting our brain. So let's bring it to the digital detox. Why do you think a digital detox is important?
Speaker 2:Well, I think there's a couple of reasons. I think the first is we want to start by, you know, recognizing that anything digital is highly stimulating to our brain. It's like we got to think about, like, how these devices are designed right, they're colorful, there's sounds.
Speaker 2:Like there's information, it's a lot of things that our brains really get, like I said, very stimulated by reinforced for engaging with, and so when we're constantly in that sort of activated, stimulated mode, what feels enjoyable in the short term, it's also like you know. I mean, not everybody likes running, I certainly don't. But for people that like running, if they're like it's fun, I'm running, it feels really good, but like you can't run all the time right, Like we need to be in a state of rest. So the first thing to understand is that our brains are not meant to be this stimulated, this activated, this consistently right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you have to get out of it. And and the thing I always say is that the apps, the phones, they were meant to addict and they are doing it well. Yes, you know because, again, I think so. When I started saying that, like I feel I'm so judgmental of myself and I love that you said you have to radically accept that you're just going to use your phones, you're in it yes, and I do.
Speaker 1:I notice when I'm in it and there's and I'm in it like. So this is mine like usually kind of checking scores, reading up on, like some kind of sports news. I will do a little scroll of social media, which is, you know, there's some and honestly, I like like dance stuff, like watching people I love the talented people out there or animals, like I love watching.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, that I love we, we share that, yes, so and but again, I think some people look for the excuse to say, like well, you know that's Like I love watching.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that I love. I love. We share that.
Speaker 2:Yes, we do.
Speaker 1:But again I think some people look for the excuse to say like well, you know, that's, that's not like negative kind of stuff. I'm looking at that's positive and that could be creating oxytocin because they're looking at a baby. Historically, laugh at the cat trying to murder him.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, it's like, that's all true. It's like, and it's it's your brain's being stimulated. Yeah, right, like it's like, like, it's another reason. Like we have to sleep, like we can't be, you know, when we're awake during the day, let's say we're not even on our devices, but we're taking in stimuli all the time. Right, we are rest because our brains need time to reset and to integrate that information. And so you know, I think that you know to your point. People can often say like, but the content is good, right?
Speaker 2:It's good content. It's like yeah, okay, like that's okay to, like you know, consume some of it. However, we do need to recognize that it's keeping us in an activated, engaged state. That's very, very draining and our brains do need time away.
Speaker 1:they need to rest, you know here well, let's and I'm going to pivot for a moment to please you know currently, right now, we've talked a lot on this, you know, on one east meets west, about polarization, about letting go, about dialectics, about all or nothing and and right now we're like.
Speaker 1:what's upon us is like the largest sort of dialectic because we're such a polarized country of the upcoming election and Digital detox. To me, this is such an important topic. That we're discussing this is a gift. We're not doing therapy with our listeners. Here's a gift to practice in light of this election. How do you stay boundaried For you? How is that showing up one?
Speaker 2:problem with the, with digital information and even having access to. You know newspapers and you know news, even podcast podcasts, right ours is factual and educational yes, true, but but it's like even, it's like the idea like humans often think that more information is always better yeah, and it really activates, like our control stuff and the control agenda and so you know, and I've certainly been guilty of this, it's like you think, like I've got to keep reading, I've got to stay up to date on what the latest polls are.
Speaker 2:You know, um, you know even that polls were also as 2024. We're in the midst of the world series which the dodgers made it to, and sorry that's not but. But I've been checking what's the whatever article about the Dodgers and like it's okay, wait.
Speaker 1:I gotta let the listeners know that. Uh, so unlike Nick, so Nikki of course did not want to rub it into me about the Dodgers losing and so the first text, the Dodgers um the Mets right thank you for that correction excuse me, how dare I speak? Excuse me so my first text to nikki uh after that happened was let's go, yankees.
Speaker 2:So I I appreciate it yeah you. I hope you got a chuckle out of that I did, I did, I certainly did, I certainly did, but to the, to the point. I'm know it's like I'm like, involved in, like reading and all this stuff, and it creates the illusion of doing something the illusion of control, and I want to be really clear.
Speaker 2:I'm not suggesting and I'm assuming you would also not suggest this, pete that we want people to like bury their heads in the sand and never take information. That's often like the, the pushback I get and I'll say right, I'm not saying don't be informed. Be informed, though, be informed to a limit, and then say I need to step away because you know your brain needs time to rest. And also, reading more and more articles, whether it be about the election or about the world series or anything else, isn't going to change the outcome of anything.
Speaker 1:Right. Say that again. That's important for listeners, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the more. Taking in more and more information isn't going to change the outcome.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:It creates the illusion of controlling or knowing an outcome, but we don't that. That's not actually how it works. So, when it comes to the election, the only agency you have right is voting. Or maybe you're volunteering for a campaign or something right. When it comes to the World Series, as Pete likes to make fun of me, he's like oh yeah, keep yelling at the television. I'm sure that really helps.
Speaker 2:And I'm like that was my other text message, yeah that was the other text message to me, you know, and I and so it's like, yeah, it's, it is like comical, like that I'm, you know, as if I told Pete I said I get so superstitious Sometimes, even the way that I'm like sitting, I have to like, you know, like, and I know that's magical thinking, but this is what our brains want to do so I have, I have fun with this, and so I think what I do the scientists in me is trying to mess with the algorithm, because it's kind of.
Speaker 1:it's kind of scary like how much stuff and how again, like listeners, these devices are learning. They're learning really well, they're they might be learning better than the human brain, like that you still don't know and uh, so they're learning, and so this is that group. Think that ends up happening on social media, where, or or any of these digital devices where, if you are constantly clicking like la dodgers, you're going to get all the more content.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yeah and so I will. I will, on purpose, click on all like crazy kinds of stuff to see, to see what comes up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah well, and sometimes it does things like I mean. I feel like I remember one time it was like pushing me. This is like an Apple news. It was like pushing me all this information about the Royal family and I'm like I'm not particular and I was like I must've read one article about like Meghan Markle or something, and I was like who, who I like? She's Angelina, Like myself.
Speaker 1:And so yeah.
Speaker 2:I, the devices be involved, but it's like take a break from like the narrowing of contact get out in the world and like experience other things, like go walk outside and like don't like you know people I will see on a walk and they're like on their phone drives me nuts, I'm like bummer, I'm like bummer, you know and everyone has their headphones in, and this is where I feel like I'm becoming my grandmother, you know, because it's like she was complaining about all the generations and so.
Speaker 1:But I radically accept that that that's part of this. Part of this is that there's cycles of life and every generation is complaining about the one before.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah sure.
Speaker 1:But come on, y'all, take your headphones off. Stand online without it.
Speaker 2:And what we're saying is take the opportunity to detox from the digital stuff.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that.
Speaker 2:The digital stuff is not going anywhere, yes, you're welcome and so detox from the digital stuff. The digital stuff's not going anywhere. Yes, you're welcome, you know, and so your brain? It's about resting. So again, people are like asking me, like, why do we need to do it? It's helpful, it's interesting and I'm like, but our brains need to be bored sometimes. So there's actually you know, and I should find this.
Speaker 2:I should try to find this article and link it in the description, but there was a great article in the New York Times, maybe about a year ago, um, that was written by some scientist, maybe maybe a psychologist, actually, I'm not sure but it was talking about how, uh, boredom actually allowing ourselves to be ourselves, to be bored, um, and and not be overstimulating um ourselves and getting too involved in in uh, you know, information gives us the opportunity to be creative and to daydream.
Speaker 2:And it's true. It's like you know, when we're just constantly trying to fill up the space with content, we miss the opportunity to let our minds wander right. And also, by the way, being bored is a part of being a person. We got to learn to be able to just like be uncomfortable sometimes.
Speaker 1:And all roads lead to mindfulness, because that's one of the ways. So in the Zen, zen world, what we're doing is sitting, still quiet, you know, trying to get you know, at the top of my practice I'm doing about two hours a day, hour in the morning, hour at night, and I feel the best now into at this time of year because of my schedule I'm lucky if I get 2020, you know. But I'll always kind of commit to something because, look, sometimes it's five, five, right, just something. But I think you, you notice like it's so profound the impact that it has where then you just feel more, you feel the stress and so, yeah, and sometimes when you're sitting and meditating, you get bored, you know, like that's part of the process.
Speaker 2:That's right. It's. It's boring. That can be boring. And it's like and not, and so it's like. What Pete and I are saying is like. Let's not judge that.
Speaker 2:Like being uncomfortable is a part of being alive, including being bored, like we don't need to fill up every space with conversation or information or stimulation, you know. And so wherever you can take space to disengage from from digital devices and again you don't do it all the time we need them for I again, to disengage from from digital devices, and again you don't do it all the time we need them for I again, pete and I can say I, I need it for work.
Speaker 1:I'm on the computer, right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like it's a part of our lives. We're not going to get rid of that, but our brains need the space to rest.
Speaker 1:What? What just came to mind? I'm curious what you would say about this is like even using silence as a therapeutic intervention. And so for listeners like that's, you know, even as cognitive behavioral therapists, you know, because silence was kind of historically I don't know, if this, I feel like it's more psychodynamic and at least by sort of theory, you know.
Speaker 2:but Well, clinicians were less directed like psychoanalysts are less directive right. So it's more like the patient would be free associating.
Speaker 1:So there would be a lot of talking in the session, but it would be the patient doing all the talking we do like.
Speaker 2:It's usually more like 50-50,. Right it's much more.
Speaker 1:We're much more directive. So I wonder what you would say about, you know, the use of silence as an intervention for you as a cognitive behavioral therapist.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, I definitely use it.
Speaker 2:It's the same you know, it's the same, like sometimes there's a time for me to be talking and there's a time for me to be still therapists is we look, we work on actually getting quiet, yes, you know, and slowing down and I'll like help them change. You know the modulation in their um, you know in like the cadence of their speech or like, like deepening the tone. Right, there's all of these things that are about, uh, either quieting or sometimes sitting back and not saying anything at all. Because why, sometimes we need to build in the space and the therapeutic context.
Speaker 1:I feel like you just brought that live to One East, One East, One West. We just slowed down. We brought the cake.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we did, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, I was doing it in real time. I was doing it in real time.
Speaker 1:There's a real place for that. You know, it's not boredom in session, because our sessions are 45 minutes so they're usually tend to go pretty fast, uh, and so it's 50 over here on the west coast well we, we need an extra five minutes here. I don't know why, but yeah, you guys are just a little slower in your uh, in your output yeah, yeah, that's, that's's probably true, that's not. Well, in the sports world sometimes it's 20 to 30 minutes yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 2:You've gotten real good at being.
Speaker 1:It's just boom, boom, boom and it's similar structurally, but anyway. So digital detox, like critical for like health and well-being and something else. You know we're seeing it a lot as it's showing up. Any last sort of thoughts or things that come to mind around this, the importance of digital detox or technology?
Speaker 2:I think it's just like, you know, back to all roads lead to mindfulness, right, but it's like, if you can, if if folks listening can just practice an increased awareness of you know how much time are you spending on your devices? Right, but without judging it again, not, you know, I know there's. It's like you know the iPhone can track how many hours and then people feel guilty about how many hours they spend. It's like, if that's helpful for you, use it. But it's more around like okay, like do I feel overstimulated, do I feel tired here? And it's like, okay, well, maybe it's time to take a little break. Go walk around the block, you know. Go, you know, you know. Just, I don't know. Just go to the, just go to the post office and don't check your phone for the 15 minutes blurry half the time on these phones yeah, totally me too.
Speaker 2:I mean, I, we should get a you know ophthalmologist um we'll have, we'll have a guest.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, you know as this, as all the season in the world is upon us. Uh, you know, listeners, as you're tuned in, think about your digital detox, commit to that, and you know, know that it makes sure that you're using the device and that it's not using you.
