When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E12 The Evolving Nature of Wisdom and Insight
Unlock the secrets of wisdom as we journey through its rich and multifaceted landscape, drawing insights from both Eastern and Western viewpoints. Imagine wisdom not as a static treasure of the old but as a dynamic force that can emerge vibrantly in the young. We promise you'll gain a deeper understanding of how wisdom is more than just accrued knowledge or intelligence. Join us as we explore how life experiences, whether you're guiding a seventh grader or an injured athlete, shape our perceptions and decisions. With references from Oxford and Psychology Today, we reveal how wisdom helps us navigate the unpredictable currents of life, aided by a 92-year-old teacher whose life is a testament to the perfect blend of wisdom and intelligence.
Discover how to cultivate your own inner wisdom across different cultures and stages of life. We delve into the art of balancing emotion and reason, highlighting the "wise mind" concept from dialectical behavior therapy and the often-misunderstood portrayal of wisdom in various traditions. Through personal stories of recovery and resilience, we emphasize the power of mindfulness and the importance of tuning into one's intuitive wisdom. This episode is a call to nurture the wisdom within, to listen to our inner voices, and to learn from the wise souls around us, ensuring that wisdom remains a guiding light throughout our lives.
has anyone ever told you that you're wise beyond your years, nikki? They have I knew that they would actually you knew the answer that they have been told that have you have. You have you been told that I have that sort of old soul like wisdom thing but yes we? We do share that in each other, don't we?
Speaker 2:yes, we do, we do we also share some training as a psychologist. That also helps with speeding up the wisdom, I would say sometimes speeding up.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, I think we've done it in a healthy way, but uh, so yes, I'm thankful that you and I have done that. So let's dive into wisdom both from an eastern perspective, but then maybe sort of think about it in in the west. Uh, because I think you know I, I've also been called like a wise guy, um, when I was totally, totally different use of the word wise. I know language.
Speaker 1:Yes, that does not speak to wisdom, but I do, you know okay so for the list, for the, for the listeners that have both been called wise as far as wisdom and wise as far as wise or a wise guy yeah, break it down yeah, well, obviously wise guy is just like a phrase of like you're, you know you're being, you're being a funny, snarky guy over there right
Speaker 2:um, which fits known to be sometimes, which I like, um, but yeah, you know, I I like, and I like this topic because you know it's, with many things like wisdom in some ways is like kind of hard to define. I think, um, I am I don't know if you, I'm certainly not I'm sure it's studied. I am not aware of studies on wisdom. I'm sure there's probably some very interesting like sociological or, um, you know, psychological studies on on it. But I would say, like, on average, maybe most people when they think of wisdom, they think of it as something that is gained with age and time. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. And what came to mind when you were just saying, probably like philosophical studies, I don't know, or you know studies, I don't know, or you know, because I don't know psychological studies would probably look at it, would probably at least operationalize wisdom as intelligence, which I don't think we're talking about intelligence we're not no right it's what's I mean.
Speaker 2:Again, this is where it gets kind of like funny like it. I maybe would argue it's a kind of intelligence, right like yeah, it's not like the way that we study it in the west, like it's, it's not. Like you know how good are you, or like how good are your spatial relations, or your mental math or whatever.
Speaker 1:Or if you know what to do with an envelope that has not been placed in the mailbox.
Speaker 2:Right, right, sure, but it is this form of intelligence, I would say, because it's something it's deeper than that, is kind of what I would say Like Something it's deeper than that is kind of what I would say Like it's a type of knowing and a type of learning that, yeah, it goes beyond sort of you know, I don't know like being. It's not about I mean, it's a weird way of saying it, but it's not about sort of like functioning in the day to day, and yet it's also about but it is about functioning more broadly as a human, holistically in your, in one's life. That's maybe how I would describe it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Oxford defines it as the quality of having experience, knowledge and good judgment, the quality of being wise. We hate that.
Speaker 2:Why do they hate? I don't know. It's very lazy. I'm sorry, sorry guys, I'm sorry, don't, don't, don't give up. But yeah, that's. You know that is really not.
Speaker 1:I like the idea of the quality having experience, knowledge and good judgment. Okay, that's that. And then actually psychology today, uh, has an article that defined it as the integration of knowledge, experience and deep understanding, as well as a tolerance for the uncertainties of life that's the deepest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're talking about Go ahead, psych today. Yeah, that's getting at what we're talking about here. Because if we come back to the concept of, I think a lot of people would say or believe that wisdom is gained with age, which I think is true a lot of times. I think the reason for that is because, obviously, with age, it's literally like quantity of experience You've experienced more and so you learn like I don't know how things are going to go, and sometimes I get surprised, or sometimes things are hard, but to that point you don't actually have to be older to be wise, like I've certainly encountered younger people that are very wise. I mean, sometimes I'm sure listeners have had experiences like you know, when kids say stuff, sometimes you're just like, oh my god, where did that come from? They say these like they cut through the b? Bs and they say these like extremely wise things. Um, you know, I don't think it's it's necessarily age that creates it, but there's something about like a deeper understanding or a clarity about, um, you know how things work as a person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, because there's a lot of old people who are not very wise, touche, that's true.
Speaker 2:That's true, you know, and I think for us.
Speaker 1:You know it's a little bit more about. Well then there's. So there's a spiritual piece to this is actually what we're saying, you know, there's something, that deeper thing about this is spiritual, which is why I think you wanted to have you know this episode, because to look at sort of the eastern um ideas of wisdom what I will say to that is my my teacher is 92 years old. I would definitely say he's wise, um he, he embodies all of the things that we've just been talking about, plus intelligence, you know.
Speaker 1:So, so really everything um and you know that is the type of thing where I feel like he's instilled, you know, a bit for on me and and just being able to like be around that is just so powerful um, but it's also intimidating. You know there's times when you're just sitting around and he's um. I remember during grad school there was a um. Actually he was on my dissertation committee. I would like go into meetings with him and like have a notebook and write down the words he was saying, because I didn't know half of them. I wanted like. You know he was just so brilliant and so sometimes that this wisdom is can be intimidating. You know, interacting with somebody with wisdom that's very interesting.
Speaker 2:This is like I have a different experience, Like when, when I hear you describe that and this is not to negate what you're saying- Because you never do that. I never do that.
Speaker 1:I never disagree. No, not me Never, never challenge.
Speaker 2:No intelligence can be intimidating sometimes, but I don't. I don't experience wisdom as as intimidating. I experienced it as like very grounding and like very safe feeling honestly, like when I encounter somebody who I experience as very wise or they or I hear something or say something, or you know privy to hearing something. That's, that's, that's wise. It's like feels very peaceful to me honestly, like it doesn't, it doesn't make me feel intimidated or anxious or anything like that, because I think I don't know, it's the old, like facts are grounding kind of concept.
Speaker 2:You know I think that's what wisdom is is like just saying truth, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, you're just you're. You're wiser than I am, that's all. You're older, but you're not older? I'm not older I just wanted to try to yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna let not gonna let pete get away with that.
Speaker 2:He is two grades older than me, guys, as I always remind him oh, yep, two grades.
Speaker 1:It's the funniest thing. This is the east coast west coast difference. On the west coast they talk about age by grade that you're in or at least in California.
Speaker 2:I don't know that's like a cat, like in New York. I always got dinged for that and I was like I didn't make that up. I was like all my friends from all over California. It's just a reference point. We just want to know that's. What were you dressed up as? I don't remember actually what we were dressed up for halloween. Yeah, not new. No, when I was younger I did. But no, this is, this is not. This is not a halloween episode oh, we should.
Speaker 1:We got you well, this is just deeper. This is deeper meaning I just I fell into your seventh grade self. I just I wanted to know about her a bit more, that's all that was my, that was my.
Speaker 2:My seventh grade self was not wise. I'll say that as I don't. It's very hard to be wise in seventh grade, is it's a very tough, tough time, yeah, well in the east.
Speaker 1:They'll actually uh, this is something I struggle with, so they'll kind of pick, you know, people that are like the next alilama or like the next teacher or next guru and that could happen during that time, which I find just fascinating yeah, that is fascinating. I mean there would be nobody you know, like I don't know.
Speaker 2:It would be really hard to find that kind of inherent, like wise, like 7th grader, I don't know, except that, as I was saying every now and then, kids can say to my experience, they can like wise, like seventh grader. I don't know Right, except that, as I was saying every now and then, kids can say to my experience, they can say something that can be very wise, um, though, yes, I think on the whole, that's, that's um, that's not um, that's not the common experience no.
Speaker 2:You know what I was actually just thinking to that point. Frankly, like stereotyping Eastern practices, that wisdom can kind of become like a caricature, yeah Right, where it's sort of like this idea that somebody who's wise is like very serious and all-knowing, and I think it is important to say, like you know, true wisdom, if somebody is truly wise, they're not leading by saying how wise they are, you know? Oh, exactly, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like I think that's an important thing to say and that being wise is not antithetical to being light-hearted. And you know, humorous and right. You know, like I think, do you?
Speaker 1:know what I'm talking about, like sort of that caricature of wisdom that can exist and I do because what I think, what I was about to say when I was talking about my teacher previously, was I brought to him once that there are some really wise teachers but, like in other parts of the world, that are studying or prophetizing some aspects of Buddhism, they're also like killing others that are not practicing Buddhism. Yes, and so you know, how do those things exist together?
Speaker 2:And I think that's what you're talking about. It's like, you know, behaviorism, how you know humans can kind of interrupt a lot of these really great things. Anything we can try to use something that's a wonderful concept and the function of it can transform into something awful, right, and so wisdom is no different, and I do think it's important. You know, as with anything, it's like if anybody tells you they have all the answers and they know best, it's like, well, run for the hills, run for the hills, run for the hills. It's like, you know, I guess's to that point. It's like I, I want people listening to trust their own inner wisdom too. Right, that's the thing we do a lot in our work, right, we're trying to cultivate, like to, you know, in uh, dialectical behavior therapy, dbt.
Speaker 2:That borrows a lot of concepts from zen booze, and there's actually a term that's used called wise mind, which is just like a name for basically intuition, right, sort of the blend of emotion and reason and connecting to one's inner voice. And that can be a hard thing to do, like a lot of times, and I know, I've experienced this myself like it can be hard to trust your own inner wisdom. You know, you can sort of second guess or doubt. Humans, unfortunately, are really good at that. I don't know. Is that something that you find is a common topic that comes up like trying to help people connect to their own wisdom and believe, and believe that they have that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that came up this week actually because we were working with my team and in groups of provision just talking about sort of injury recovery and there's a lot of work and I feel very strongly about this work around returning to play.
Speaker 1:So, especially from a brain perspective, but also just this you know, the psychological kind of vulnerability of the trauma, of an injury. Usually people, you know, carry with them and it's really, really powerful, and so obviously we have things like cognitive processing and we have, um, you know, exposure and, and so I'm using those modalities, like for the injury, um, to help somebody get back, um, you know, to play. But anyway, part of what we were saying in the group was, like, some of the stuff is just intuitive, so it's hard for me to kind of give, uh, instruction on how to do it to my team, but I'm finding that, you know, athletes are kind of wanting to work with me more rather than someone on my team, because they're, you know, maybe I helped one of their teammates or the star, or you know, and they might know that and so. But so what I'm doing then is just trying to like present some cases but also then just help the team kind of connect more with, you know, their wise mind you know, mindfulness or through other sort of practices.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that was. That was what I was gonna say actually is that, you know, part of connecting to inner wisdom in order to get there, like we need space right, and we need to be able to like quiet and listen to ourselves, and, you know, one of the best ways to do that is through mindful practice, right Through a slowing down. So, you know, I think it's just important to, when thinking about wisdom, is to know it's not something that just like exists out in the world, like obviously there's social species, like there's, you know, there's so many amazingly wise humans out there that we can learn from, though we also want to be able to cultivate a connection to listen to our own wisdom, because we're all here on this planet, we're all living, we're all learning all the time, you know, and I think that I think that's just such an important practice that a lot of us have a hard time with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do, and so I wanted, before we end, just a little bit of like the definition from like Buddhism, about what wisdom actually is. So wisdom from a Buddhist sense is a realization of awareness of the true nature of reality that transcends ordinary comprehension. So, in other words, wisdom transcends knowledge, and that's powerful.
Speaker 2:Like that's that for me. I, I, I, uh, connect with that very deeply. I'm sorry, webster, that's the mirror, was I, I, I go, I gotta go with the buddhist definition we are not into you right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so you like, you like that I like that. I like that quite a bit yeah, I knew you would, just because you're wise.
Speaker 2:Well, as are you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I wasn't being a wise guy there.
Speaker 2:You were not being a wise guy. You were not being a wise guy. You were not being a wise guy.
Speaker 1:So all right, I will. Let's wrap this up. I think this from Socrates will end this episode really nicely For listeners. True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize little we understand about life ourselves and the world around us.
