When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E9 Finding Peace Through Letting Go: Embracing Mindfulness and Emotional Freedom
What if you could find peace by simply letting go? Join us as we unravel the profound wisdom behind letting go through powerful stories and enlightening discussions. Kicking off with a poignant koan about two monks and an old lady, we explore the simplicity of helping without attachment and the complexity of human suffering. This episode guides you through the difference between inevitable pain and optional suffering, emphasizing how our resistance often intensifies our distress. We also share a touching story about the beauty of a flower, highlighting the transformative power of acceptance and mindfulness. Reflect on your own struggles and discover how embracing life's moments with openness and compassion can bring about profound change.
Let's dive deep into the practice of letting go within the framework of mindfulness and emotional well-being. We tackle common misconceptions about detachment, clarifying that letting go is about releasing control rather than distancing from experiences. The principle "push away nothing, cling to nothing" is our guiding light, helping to reduce distress and suffering. Personal anecdotes and spiritual traditions illustrate the importance of mindfulness in daily life, emphasizing the urgency and beauty of living in the present moment. By focusing on the "now" and acknowledging the inevitability of death, we can live more fully and find clarity. Join us for a transformative journey towards emotional freedom and mindfulness.
Nikki, there were two monks walking together, an older and a younger one. And all of a sudden they get to this body of water and there's an old lady there and she just looks so frustrated, like she just can't get past the puddle you know where this body of water. And so the two monks are just looking at each other, not sure what to do, and you know, the young monk just tries to engage her, but she doesn't engage because she's just so irritated. And so the old monk just picks her up, puts her on her back and carries her across the water and drops her off. When they get to the other side of the water she just walks away. And so the young monk just kind of notices that there's all this stuff going on. And then, but you know, a couple hours later he's trying to learn from this older monk and he says to the old monk you know, sir, I don't understand this. She didn't even say thank you and the old monk said I'm not sure why you're carrying her. I dropped her off a few hours ago.
Speaker 2:Very interesting. I was uh, by the way. I just have to say I'm sure um listeners tuning into this episode are like is he starting with a joke? And it's like no it's a koan.
Speaker 1:It's a koan.
Speaker 2:It's a koan, so I like that surprise lead in there, and you know, I love hearing the koans, some of the koans so yet to say I mean, that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about koans today, though we do have an episode on koans, but why did you pick that Pete? What are we talking about today?
Speaker 1:Letting go. You know it's one of the hardest things. I know that. You know we call it radical acceptance and Western behaviorism. But you know, letting go like how do you just let go? And it sounds so simple and there's so many things and you and I work with people every day that are just having a hard time letting go and you and my you and me, you know you and. I, I don't know. We, we struggle, you, we, I struggle with that too, sometimes right there's things that you just you just hold on to.
Speaker 1:So this koan, um, I was telling you, you know, before we started recording, that it was um, kind of at different anniversaries and in in moments right like people either have anniversaries of someone they've lost uh, certainly, 9-11 every year has some meaning in the us, um, and it's not like an invalidation of like let go. It's like why are you still carrying her? You know, when I I dropped her off hours ago and that was the old monk kind of telling the young monk like, and usually when I do this in like a group setting, there's always like a like emoji, blow your head type kind of reaction. You know, people are like damn, you know like yeah, like I dropped her off hours ago.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, what's really interesting about that particular story is I'm going to guess that there are people listening that are going to immediately hear that story and your example of like an anniversary of having lost someone, of like you're supposed to let go of that person or that memory, or that love. And I think that what we want to be really clear about is, first of letting go is a uh, it's a, it's a process, right, it's an ongoing like. There may be moments, moments where we let go and then moments where we're clinging again, but, um, you know, ultimately, you know, from a tell me if I'm wrong from a buddhist perspective, um, you know, sometimes what we're trying to let go of is suffering, not necessarily right. So I think that that's really important to distinguish between, uh, suffering and pain, because we're not asking listeners, you know, the colon is not asking humans to let go of pain, because pain is a part of being a person.
Speaker 2:So, if we've, if we've lost someone, we are going to touch grief over and over again. It's going to, you know, come like waves, but the suffering is going to show up when we are fighting it. Or you know, yeah, getting um, falling to the the bottom of the ocean, which, by the way, happens and and is normal. So I don't know, do you have any thoughts about that? Like that's just something that came into my mind immediately when, when you were saying you know she was, why are you still carrying her? I can imagine people going like, well, of course I'm going to carry this person with me that I lost, or you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean pain. Like we've said this before, pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. That's one of the Eastern sort of sayings. And again, that is not. None of this is easy Like. So by no means are we saying this is an easy thing to do. Like don't choose suffering. I mean, yeah, sure, like sure Buddhist, like I wish I would love not to choose suffering. You know, cause it's sort of the human experience is to is to suffer. I mean, that's the first. You know, noble truth is that we all do suffer. So it's.
Speaker 1:These stories are there and there's another story that I'll abbreviate it, but basically it's a similar thing where a lady comes in morning to the teacher and she says, like I'm just so sad I lost someone I really love.
Speaker 1:And the teacher says, like he picks they're in the garden and he like picks a flower and he says you see this beautiful flower. And he says, like what if we pull, you know, the, the petals from the stem and we hold really tight, you know she's like kill the flower. And he goes, yeah, then you can't have the beauty of it anymore. You know, but what if we gently hold the flower or kind of arrange a bouquet? You know we could do, um, celebrate and kind of experience the beauty of, of the flower, you know. But there's that holding on piece to it too. I I know in third wave CBT we talk a lot about like the porcupine, and if I'm holding really tight the porcupine it hurts, but I can gently place a porcupine in my hand, um, and without holding tight onto it. So there's that piece of this as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, well, yeah, and again, you know these are very, um, these are very difficult behaviors to practice. So you know some of these examples you know Pete and I are talking about today. There are ways to try to, um, connect with some of these really hard behaviors. But, to be clear, they're not like Pete was saying before. They're not, these are not easy, but they're not easy for me, they're not easy for him. Um, yeah, I mean, I think that with that story, is is also referencing and you know obviously comes up in therapy quite a bit is that we actually can't access the way I say it is, we can't access what we want in the world, meaning pleasure, connection, love, comfort, meaning fulfillment, whatever the stuff that our brains wish we could only experience.
Speaker 2:We only experience, you know the quote-unquote good stuff, right, um, but the, the way that I'm gonna say kind of a bold statement, reality is designed is that we can't actually access those things if we're first not willing to uh, touch, hold, make space for pain, right, and that, and so that's where the, the the trap gets set for us as humans, right, is that we're like ah, I'm smart, I've got these, like fancy, this fancy human brain that can problem solve an abstraction. So I'm going to try to to, I'm going to try to hold on to this thing, or I'm going to try to get rid of this thing, and then it gets in the way of the things that we actually want. So, you know, letting go is this constant process about trying to let go of I'm gonna be said in many episodes local control right, well, and we say like be in the present moment, make contact with the present moment.
Speaker 1:So the young monk walked hours without being in the present moment because he was stewing about how she didn't say thank you and yes and I think that that's the thing to look like, where the older monk dropped her off and moved on and it's kind of like, you know, being in traffic or you know all these types of things, that you're just so focused on the frustration of it versus, like, the, the acceptance of it and the intentionality of it. Like, how do I make contact with the intent you know of that present moment?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely, and I think it's worth saying, though, then, but sometimes that present moment is is going to be extremely painful I'm just imagining what people might say like, but what if you know again, what if I've lost somebody? What if, like, I lost a job? What if I'm yeah you know, I don't know the breadth of human experience yeah, yeah, exactly like.
Speaker 1:And I can see somebody saying like well, what I'm just supposed to, I don't know the breadth of human experience.
Speaker 2:It's your tragedy. Yeah, yeah, exactly Like. And I can see somebody saying like, well, what I'm just supposed to let go of that? And it's like no, actually in that moment you're touching it make contact with that Right, you make contact with it, and so the letting go is is the not trying to, is not trying to control? You know not how, you know again, our brains don't want to have it, they want to, they want to try to get rid of it somehow.
Speaker 1:So, um yeah, I don't know, Like, what metaphors do you, what metaphors do you use for radical acceptance? Like I use the porcupine bond, or, you know, the the koan had, like the flower that you're holding onto really tight. Do you have any that you use?
Speaker 2:You know it's so you're going to laugh so funny Cause I of course do, but in this moment I'm like what metaphors do I use?
Speaker 2:I was like there's, you know, there's a very famous uh, a DBT metaphor about a house, about, you know, but it's a good one which which I think we've talked about before, but I actually don't even want to use it in this moment, because I think what's showing up for me as we're talking about this is that some of the metaphors, I think, around radical acceptance or letting go, sometimes I think they don't land well because they sort of sound like we're trivializing what is painful.
Speaker 2:And so I think, so, you know, oftentimes, like when I'm talking about the, the um, the behavior of letting go, I'm spending more time, um, I think, trying to do like psychoeducation around, like this idea of, like you know, it's this ongoing practice like in mindfulness. Yeah, Cause I think that's where people get stuck. It's like, oh, I just let go and it's done, and like, oh, how is this do that? I'm like, no, it's like waves in the ocean. It's like pain is coming and going.
Speaker 1:There's a metaphor. Yes, there is a metaphor. I don't know, I don't my brain is frozen yeah. Like grabbing a porcupine anytime soon. I'd probably be running in the other direction, but yeah, I do like, I do like that one.
Speaker 2:I forget about that one often.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I use that one a lot and also like, cause I'm around, like there's always like a basketball or a football or something around. Of course, right now there isn't, but you know, so I'll just on to something too tight and that to your point, which I love, it's also. It's like positive, negative, neutral, it's all the things. So if I'm even holding on to you know like a really positive experience, you know like inducted into the Hall of Fame was so cool. You know, if you're holding on to that, you know like then, then you're also missing out on the present moment and so it's equal, it's there's, there's equity around like how we have to let go. So it's not just for the pain, um, it's also for the celebrations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's well, you know, and we've we've said this many times in this podcast. But there's, you know, the famous mindfulness saying of like push away nothing cling to nothing. And it's, you know, people are always like what does that mean? I'm like, well, it's the two things the brain wants to do behaviorally Like. So, when things are uncomfortable, what does our brain want to do? Get rid of it, push it away. When the thing is comfortable, what does our brain want to do? Hold really tight. Yeah, more, yes, and it's both of those behaviors, even though they're in opposition, create more of what we don't want, create more distress, more suffering. So you know, I think I said this a couple minutes ago, but I guess, the more we're talking today, like when I hear the phrase letting go, it's again. I think really what we're saying is like let go of control, let go of attachment in this moment, right? So, like you know, not again, I think it's often misheard is like let go of love, let go of you.
Speaker 2:Know memories, let go of right pain and we're like no, it's letting go of suffering. And how do we let go of suffering? By letting go of control, letting go of attachment. It's like and that, and that is something we have to come back to over and over again. You know, like, just like mindfulness.
Speaker 1:And that's the second noble truth is that attachment creates the suffering, and so the recognition of the Buddha during that process, you know, under the tree, was that you know his attachment to things is what created all the suffering, and so being able to let go of that, uh, you're gonna, you're gonna like what I'm about to say because it's a language thing.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking that, um, especially nowadays, people are much, more, um, knowledgeable about this. When we say attachment, we don't mean like, in english we talk a lot about attachment styles. That's a very particular type of attachment. That's not the kind of attachment we're talking to. Talking about, excuse me, today right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:so attachment to you know things and, and you know, this is where it's kind of funny, because, cause, like I, my midlife crisis is things, um, I, I, I don't. I wish you'd do an episode on that, uh on your, on your, on midlife crisis. Yeah, yeah, um, no, but I joke. But, like you know, I I have, um, I I wear, like you know, $2 t-shirts and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Um, but I did kind of fall into my midlife crisis. I'm shoes you got into the fancy yeah, you got into the fancy shoes.
Speaker 1:And so, um, that was kind of a funny experience. And so you know again, because it's really the, it's the opposite of what we're actually saying here, because it is about, like you know, in general these people are living, you know, very simplistic lives, you know, and there's not a lot of uh there, there's no excess. You know, even like you're the meal gotha, you know you're, you're, you're chanting, saying like I'm not going to take, they're not going to hold on to greed either, like I'm not going to eat more than I mean like you mean, you mean monks and you're talking about monks.
Speaker 1:Is that what you're doing? Like a um does end like a any kind of like retreat. Let's say um, you know, before every meal, you, you chant this one thing, and one of the things that's a reminder that the foods come from 72 laborers and that there's all the sort of thinking about where the food came from. And then also one of the statements in there is that, like you're, you know you're going to also, um, let go of greed, because sometimes people will kind of go and eat sure, overeat, and that's also part of it?
Speaker 1:do I eat enough just to kind of nourish my body and not have attachment to you?
Speaker 2:know they always joke sometimes that like last born will eat really fast because you know they might get taken away from them oh, yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting, yeah, yeah, well, okay, so I think what you're describing there is like, how you know, obviously, like in any kind of not I don't know most spiritual practices, maybe I should say there is often an emphasis on, like, paring down and simplicity to um, create space right to connect with some of the more foundational human processes, right, which we don't have a lot of access to when we're living busy lives and we've got our busy brains, um, though, another thing came into my mind when you were talking, which was you know, we also like most of us, don't? You know, most of us are not monks, right? Maybe there's Buddhist monks listening, but cool, if there. You know, if there are, we'd love to have you on the podcast, um, but most of us are not.
Speaker 2:And, um, us are going to, you know, get attached to things or fill our lives with stuff, and and it's also letting go of the judgment about that, it's like that's part of being so, it's. I mean, it always helps me when we talk out loud about this stuff, because it's like stuff I get clear. You know, some clarity for myself. It's like, um, letting go is a practice. It's not it. You know, letting go is a practice um do you, I mean, do you like, do you find?
Speaker 2:that you have to remind yourself about that as well, or absolutely, it's one of those, one of what I remember.
Speaker 1:One retreat I was on, uh, there was this. One of the teachers was like once you think you've become enlightened, there's, you know you're no longer enlightened and that's basic in this moment. Um, but yeah, once you think you've arrived, you're, you're, you're lost, you know that's. That's the spiritual philosophical practice of this is like you actually never arrived, there's no arrival.
Speaker 2:There's no destination. Yes, and it's a radical acceptance of that, because we're, because we're human, because we're human throughout this life, that's the thing. There's no. I mean, I was going to say this sounds like a morbid thought, but I actually don't mean it that way. It's like there there is a destination, which is death, and it's like that's the end. Right, so it's. But we, but we don't know when that will be, and we don't know, you know, we don't know when that will be, and we don't know, you know, we don't know those things. So it's like the only thing we're ever experiencing is right now. And so right now we're always in a human body, we always have a human brain, so you know.
Speaker 1:Living fully until then, you know, getting in touch with the present moment fully until then, because that's all you have in this moment, before you know that, that other moment of death and that's why they say like before death and it didn't sound morbid, so thank you for saying that but, um, they say like before death, people are like the most clear and, you know, least anxious that they've ever been and sort of just this like really magical thing, and it's like, yeah, because you're actually in the moment, you know, because there's no, yeah, there's no future, there's no future, and so a lot of us live for the future, like they, like you said so it so, um, well, we all, it's a reminder, we all we all live because again, these, these old human brains, here, you know yeah, we love the brain we do.
Speaker 2:I know you always tease me that I it sounds like I hate the brain.
Speaker 1:I'm like no.
Speaker 2:I, I, I love it. I, I, I just have a deep reverence for its immense limitations that I think we don't, we don't acknowledge. But that's why practice is like letting go uh can help us work, work with these limitations.
Speaker 1:That's right. And so, for all the listeners out there, just remembering you are, feel the contact of this present moment. And see, are you carrying this old lady that I dropped off a few hours ago.
