When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E8 Emotional Contagion: Navigating Collective Moods and Personal Autonomy
How do emotions spread like a ripple, influencing our behavior and even the mood of entire crowds? Join us as we unpack the fascinating phenomenon of emotional contagion. Through relatable examples like the different vibes at various concerts and unexpected aggression at sports events, we explain how emotions can spread from one person to many. This episode is especially crucial for therapists and students managing anxious clients, as we explore the importance of being mindful of one's emotional responses in different contexts based on Arthur Brooks’ article in the Atlantic.
We'll also tackle the challenge of maintaining individuality in crowd-based situations. Are you comfortable being a less vigilant version of yourself when caught up in mass emotions? By posing these thought-provoking questions, we emphasize the significance of making conscious choices. We'll discuss the role of leaders in shaping collective emotions and the importance of interpreting others' intentions with self-awareness. Drawing insights from Arthur Brooks, we stress the value of mindfulness in maintaining autonomy and making intentional decisions. Tune in for a compelling discussion that will help you navigate the emotional energies around you.
Well, Pete, today we are going to be talking about something that I find really fascinating, which is emotional contagion, which is kind of like a fancy expression here. Are you excited to talk about emotional contagion?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm talking to you, so of course I'm excited, duh, but it sounds like a horror movie or like one of these movies where there was like some germ, or like covid, that was spreading across all these people I think it sounds so exciting.
Speaker 1:I think there is a movie called contagion, I think that's that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah you know it's funny that you're saying that I'm I didn't even occur to me that saying the word contagion yes, probably activating for a lot of folks listening, since you know this is a post-pandemic world we're in and that word has taken on a bigger piece of our psyches. So this is not about physiological contagion, we're talking about emotional contagion. So I guess I'll start by saying like, is this like a topic that you talk about, like with patients or students, or you know, is this something that you know for we define it, which you know listeners know Pete loves to define things Is this something that you're talking about? You know clinically or professionally a lot.
Speaker 2:I think it comes up a lot and uh, I I suspect that, as november is upon us, with elections and stuff like maybe that's something that will probably come into our sessions. I know that we talked a lot about that during covid and there's certainly been like a lot of uh like content changes as the world changes in our therapeutic sessions and so, yeah, I think it does come up and it will come up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, and so maybe this is a good time to sort of mention what we're more specifically, what we're talking about. So you know, if you're listening and you're not familiar with this term, you know. Basically what it's referring to is that when we are around other people, we do kind of like quote unquote catch people's emotions. So you know, examples might be think about if you've ever been at a concert, for example, you know, and there's certain like maybe you're at a concert where everybody is like super into the artist playing and there's like a really good vibe going and there's like you know we'll often talk about it as like there's like a good energy. But you probably also have been to certain like music shows or concerts where it's like it's kind of like a dead energy, right, like nothing, is like nobody's like invest people on their phones. So you know there is.
Speaker 1:There is an experience that we have around other humans where we we kind of yeah, it's, I don't know if I'm saying we catch what they're feeling. We kind of yeah, I don't know if I'm saying it, we catch what they're feeling, we kind of get swept up in it. And social scientists do study crowds and like the emotions of crowds, and so what's really interesting is that most of us tend to believe that we hold on to our individuality when we're in these contexts. But my understanding is the research demonstrates that's not exactly true. You know that we tend to get, we tend to lose, sometimes connection to ourselves. Our beliefs are maybe things we wouldn't do in other situations. I'm thinking of, like these images of people getting into fights at like soccer matches, like you know, like in Europe or the UK, or something right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, we just had that. It's almost like we had that here at Rutgers. One of our girls team was got over 3 million views. One of our girls got in a fight a fistfight with the opponent, and it doesn't it was pushing and there's always some drama, but you're right, like it was probably just swept up in that because it's not super common and so that I don't know this will date this episode. But yeah, it was like over 3 million views over in 24 hours.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, yeah. Well, it's just, it's so. It's so fascinating about that to me. It's like again, I think most people I mean I would guess I think most people if you ask them, you know, like, if you're in a crowd or people are getting into a fight or I don't- know they're doing something you disagree with, do you think that you would go along with it?
Speaker 1:I think it's the thing most people would say no, I have my principles and my values, and you know, and I don't think people obviously are lying when they say that. But I think we, you know, I don't think people obviously are lying when they say that, but I think we, you know, as humans, we underestimate our brains a lot of times, you know, and we think that we're better able to sort of maintain conscious control over what we're doing and, I think, understanding emotional contagion, that we can quote, catch other people's emotional experiences and get swept up, and that is really important in terms of you know, you know, being aware of certain contexts that might do that Like. I mean, this is what I was asking about. You know, if you talk about this with patients or students, cause like, especially with students, I'll teach them a lot.
Speaker 1:Like you know my new, like you know, supervisees, they're learning to be therapists and if they come, if they have a patient who's extremely anxious, I'll often say to my student don't catch their anxiety, you know, like, because when someone else is really anxious, it's like there's an urgency, it's like help me do this thing and our job as therapists is like slow down, help ground them. So there can be and I've seen students get caught, I mean caught in emotional contagion. Is that something you've experienced?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and especially because you and I both do cognitive behavioral therapy, so when you're doing exposure treatment you have to really like that's a greatest example, like you know, sometimes you're watching somebody. You know you have to just kind of stay grounded, and then that can be really hard. What comes to mind as you're talking is, um John Keone. What would you do? There's like that, um that television show.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's like a thing you would have seen.
Speaker 1:Every now and then I feel like there's certain things and I'm like I probably should know this, but I don't but no, I don't know like I feel like it's been on for like 20 years, but what? Would you?
Speaker 2:I believe you, I just I don't know to me it's like in the same box of america's funniest home videos. I'm not sure if it actually is, but it's in a similar box and so the the context here is, like you know, you'll watch somebody, like in a restaurant. There's actors and they'll be in a restaurant, like doing something ridiculous, and you sort of what would you do, like would you be the person to intervene?
Speaker 1:oh, I do know this. I feel like it's on abc, right, I think it's. Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, that was what makes me think of, because very, very quickly, and when people are interviewed after, they'll be like, yeah, wanted to say something, but I didn't, because there was this social contagion where it was just sort of like, oh, they're doing something and I'm not going to be the person to intervene, because that comes with more pressure than it is to just be a bystander.
Speaker 1:Well, that's very interesting and I I'm not going to go too deep into this because I'm forgetting the research around it, but this is intersecting with the bystander effect right which which has been researched. But but I but that's interesting I do wonder if the um emotional contagion like overlaps with that, so that that's very it's very interesting.
Speaker 2:You know, bystander effect has been studied forever. I don't know that emotional or social contagion has in the same kind of way.
Speaker 1:That's, that's probably true. That's probably true.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and you know, I often say on this podcast you know, as a species, humans were very narcissistic you know, and and I think this is sort of part of this too is that we, we believe, you know and I get it's coming from a good place I would say, but but we all believe that we're going to be the hero.
Speaker 1:We all believe that we're going to be the hero. We all believe that we're going to be the one that doesn't get swept up with the crowd. You know that we're going to, we're not going to lose ourselves or or our connection to our values or our ethics or whatnot. But I think the reason you know, pete and I want to talk about this today is not to listeners definitely, you're going to lose connection to your values. There's nothing to do about it. It's more that we want to like, with everything we discuss on this podcast, we want to be mindful, right and aware of like, where do our brains glide away from our values? Right, and understanding that we are all susceptible to emotional contagion helps us catch it.
Speaker 2:Help, not in the way I'm saying catch, catch, contagion but uh notice it and intervene Right Like because you know it's very easy to to mindlessly get pulled into um, into the emotions of others, um so you know, we've seen that politically, where you'll have some of these um comedians out there interviewing, uh, any person support, like any supportive camp, and just asking questions. And you know things like would you, you know, would you vote for somebody that had, you know, biracial parents? Or you know, would you vote for somebody that was arrested and you know found guilty of a crime? Like, and there'll be, you know their answer, will you know, will just not indicate that that's the person they're actually they're supporting. You know they don't realize it and I so I think that this is a big thing in today's world, specifically, yes, and it's well and it's so interesting because I'm thinking about like.
Speaker 1:Obviously, what we're talking about is like being in the physical presence of like crowds or rallies, right and, and the energy that people can get swept up in, though I really am curious now that I'm saying this out loud of like how this overlaps with like the crowds on the internet.
Speaker 2:So to speak.
Speaker 1:You, you know, yeah, because you're catching, because it's funny, because it's like with that you're not obviously like feeling the physical energy because you're behind a screen, but you know the emotions that are activated. You know like people get.
Speaker 2:This is the same thing, um, so I want to say no, but this brings to mind to me which will highlight your beautiful psychological immunity by downing and not using social media. Sure, sure, but that cause, that's what. As we've been talking, I focus a lot on psychological immunity. You know how do you stay?
Speaker 1:keep yourself protected, basically, from stuff like this, cause it's so easy to get like a, like a rip, like a riptide in the ocean, because it's so easy to get.
Speaker 2:yes, like a yes, like a rip, like a riptide in the ocean, like it's really easy to get swept up in it yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think we were on the as as per usual. I think pete and I are on the same wavelength here. So there was a um, an article pete and I really, really enjoyed in the atlantic not long ago from arthur brooks, who talks about inoculating yourself against social contagion and social contagion you know um.
Speaker 1:So we were on the same, I was like I think Pete and I, I think we're thinking the same thing right now, um.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, and this article, you know we can link it um in the uh, in the description of this episode, if anyone's interested in reading it.
Speaker 1:But he talks about sort of where this can be like a wonderful thing, like he describes um, a uh, a situation where he was um he's a practicing Catholic and was, I believe, in Portugal where he was like a part of kind of like a procession, um that was um, you know, with other Catholics. I don't remember if they were honoring a specific saint, um, but but there was something. It was like a religious experience and it's very lovely. But he talks about it as something that like it was almost like being in a trance state. That afterwards he was like, was that like 20 minutes or was that like three hours? And so he's like, okay, so that like he's like and I'm somebody that likes, reads, like writes about this stuff and reads the studies and I got swept up in it and then he talks about sort of where this can go awry If the the emotions are, you know, like hate based instead of love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there were those like prompting questions that I wonder if I can read them and maybe let's see. That would be great.
Speaker 1:Well, can I just say that the prompting questions are just just for listeners are to ask yourself if you're going to inoculate yourself, if you're going into a situation that's crowd based. This is being mindful like going in eyes wide open, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this was a good way. So the first question was do you want to lose your individuality through emotional contagion?
Speaker 1:I think sometimes people might say yeah what do you think? Well, I think people will say yes, sometimes, like again, go back to the concert example, like thinking like it's your favorite artist or whatever, and you're like, yeah, I want to just like be in the energy.
Speaker 2:Okay, sure.
Speaker 1:But if it's something where you're like no, if you're trying to like, you're going to like a political speech or rally and you're trying to get information, for example, let's say you want to learn more losing your individuality is probably not going to be so helpful. Right, like, because you're trying to go in, yeah, yeah, yeah, it also uh.
Speaker 2:And there were artists that were like uh, saying to the crowd, like put your phone down, you know, because it's like they're there recording and actually losing even that moment, because they're just like so focused on recording rather than actually like listening and being. I think the shift has occurred at these concerts, all right. Question two that arthur wants is imagine a less vigilant, discerning, intelligent version of yourself. Are you comfortable being that person?
Speaker 1:so again, it's so interesting because it's like I think most people they'd read that and they would say no. But again, maybe if it's like, look, you're going into like a very positive energy space, maybe you'd say, okay, but like, these are things I don't think, most of us, I certainly have not framed it myself, these questions to myself in this way Like it's like, huh, being a less vigilant version of myself.
Speaker 2:Huh, I didn't think about that huh, being a less vigilant version of myself. Huh, I didn't think about that. It makes me, you know, app developers and, like clickbait for example, like with you know social media and stuff, they're likely using emotional contagion. You know there's, they're researching the words and sort of how do I get people to want to be using my app and or clicking my article? So I think that, that's Sure.
Speaker 1:It's swept up in, it's swept without conscious thinking, right, exactly. But again, we're not aware of this, and so you know, obviously, when we talk about this podcast, nonstop is, the more mindful we are, the more choice that we have you know, all roads lead to mindfulness.
Speaker 1:All roads lead to mindfulness. We'll keep going. I know he's got a couple other questions. Yeah, question three is the contagious emotion involves love or hate. Is that emotion one you want to quote catch? You think that's like the biggest one? Yeah, don't you? I think that's the biggest one. Right, like is it? I don't. I mean, I'm not I can't speak for everybody here, but I think most people if, if it's framed as like do I want want to catch hate? I don't, you know, I don't know that that's what most people go into situations intending to feel.
Speaker 2:Some, obviously people do, but yeah, I'm going to bring in some East to this, because it's also a bit dialectic and all or nothing, where it kind of says that it's love or hate, and I think that there's probably other emotions that could be involved, as one is engaging in emotional contagion or social contagion.
Speaker 1:No, that's true. I mean, I think that I think this question is more asking us to consider, like where is this? Is this coming from something else? We talk a lot about a place of connected to our values, or is it coming from a place of, like, being right or righteous or better?
Speaker 2:than or whatever you know, yeah, and and all zen stuff talks about right and wrong and yeah, exactly because it says when you're stuck in sort of evaluating that, then you're just stuck yep yep, so it's a beautiful um. Okay, last question yeah is the mass emotion being encouraged by a leader with pure intentions.
Speaker 1:Now I don't know what anyone thinks about pure intentions. Well, it's got a very Zen feel, though.
Speaker 1:I feel like when I hear that, it's like when we talk about language, it's like okay, pure intentions, like nobody's pure, like we could. You know, sometimes when we talk about, like in Buddhism, like what's the next right action, it's like well, that gets a little sticky in English. But peer intentions, again like when I, if we kind of go beyond the, the languaging in it, it's like I think the intention is again is is this a leader who is, is connected to their values? And again like, look, this is going to be like there's, not like a, this is going to be a toss up for what? You people have different values, so it's not like this is not like a simple answer. But I, you know, I think these questions, um, I think these questions just give us pause before we enter into a situation where, around other people and the risk is high to catch emotion Cause, doesn't he say if the risk is high to catch emotion, cause doesn't he say if the answer is yes to any of these, then what does he say in the article?
Speaker 2:If your answer is yes, then at least you will be participating with your eyes open. You know, and that's ultimately that's that's mindfulness, I think my intentions, though you know you could never know someone's intentions and I think that that is what people are really scared about, like that's almost like a vulnerability thing, because you're you know, you you might assume someone's coming to a situation with good intentions, but you could never know someone's intention. So I think that's important for listeners to recognize like some of this, you know you want to go with your eyes open as much as you can. Listeners to recognize like some of this, you know you want to go with your eyes open as much as you can.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's totally. I mean, I love what you're saying here, pete, because that's right. Like we can't everything, we're talking about other people. It's like we're making hypotheses. You know, we're making hypotheses. We don't have access to the information in somebody else's brain and in their body. And we have information, yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:Or just overwhelming, I don't know. I feel like it's a lot. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a lot to just know what's going on inside of my own brain and body.
Speaker 2:But we always have access to that right.
Speaker 1:We always have access to what's inside of ourselves and so, you know, going in with our eyes open is just about being that. That's the intentionality we can connect to here, you know. So, you know, for listeners, um, you know, hopefully, uh, you know, hopefully they'll check out Arthur Brooks article, like I said, we'll, we'll, we'll link it here, but, um, I hope you walk away today. Uh, just being curious about the emotions of others, um, being aware that you can catch the emotions of others and hopefully you feel empowered to take steps to inoculate yourself as best you can.
