S4E7 Mastering the Maze: Overcoming Overwhelm in Decision-Making

Why does deciding what jeans to buy feel like climbing a mountain? Let's unpack the overwhelming world of decision-making in today's episode. We confront the brain's wiring for problem-solving that goes haywire with too many choices and the added pressure of uncertain outcomes. We'll share how trying to guess others' thoughts only adds another knot in our tangled web of options. Our aim is to shine a light on why choices can be so daunting and provide some strategies to navigate this maze.

We then shift gears to discuss the delicate balance between risk and decision-making, particularly for high performers who may find themselves stuck in the quicksand of overthinking. We'll explore how aligning decisions with personal values and understanding their flexibility can be liberating. Through relatable scenarios, like deciding on a toaster, we illustrate how to make informed choices and adapt as needed. Lastly, we emphasize resilience and the acceptance of uncertainties, stressing that mistakes aren't failures but mere stepping stones in our journey. Join us for a rich discussion filled with insights and practical advice to help you make choices with courage and clarity.

Transcript

The Psychology of Decision-Making

Speaker 1 0:00

I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast Psychologist.

Speaker 2 0:03

And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast Psychologist, and this is when East Meets West Pete. We've been dancing around doing this episode for a while, which is very funny, because today we're going to be talking about decision-making and we couldn't decide when we were going to talk about decision which you know I was like man.

Speaker 1 0:25

We gotta, you know, we gotta identify the, the irony in that right, well, because you and I are funny, I'm like no, you make the decision. No, you make the decision.

Speaker 2 0:34

I know, I know, if only, if only folks would see what we're, uh, what we're doing before we, before we hit the record button, right, we're like, which is not much, yeah, yeah, just yeah, just like chatting, yeah, so, anyway. So, look, we did a good job, we made a decision. Talk about decision-making, yeah, yeah, so one reason we did want to talk about this topic is this is something that I would say, comes up pretty frequently clinically, as like a presenting issue, and for those of you listening to this episode, you may have clicked on this because you're like yeah, I struggle, I struggle with decision-making. So, look to be clear, everybody struggles to make decisions.

Speaker 2 1:13

Sometimes, like I don't want to paint a picture that you know, some people, just you know, make a decision like that they have no problem. Everybody, like you know, like, goes over things and struggles to come to a conclusion of what they're going to do. However, there's some people that get really paralyzed by decision making. So, you know I'd like to start there Like, what is your experience about? Like, why? That is like both from, like I would say, you know, a human brain perspective, but also maybe some of the environmental factors of the current era that we live in.

Speaker 1 1:47

Well, I think you'll mess with my metaphor. So I always ask people, I ask clients to think about, like going shopping for jeans when you go jean shopping. There is an endless wall of all different styles and types and whatever. I can't even, you know, cuts and no cuts. There's lots of choices and I think the world the choices kind of facilitates this paralysis.

Speaker 2 2:14

Yes, no, I like that story very much. I don't have that problem because I love jean shopping, so that's an area I don't-.

Speaker 1 2:21

Do you really?

Speaker 2 2:23

Oh yeah, I love jean shopping. I do it online mostly, but you know, I kind of know it, so that. But but I understand why somebody would. I will use it that way and I certainly would. If I go into a store and see that wall, I could feel overwhelmed. So you know, yeah, like we live in a, a society, you know where they're and it's like the choices are endless. They're not just the wall of jeans, it's not in your phone, you could go to any site and it's like there's like a thousand I want to go.

Speaker 1 2:51

I'm going to stick on your shopping for a second, so I um. So the online shopping I love, but then I end up getting then the same pant over and over again, because I know that they fit like do you? Do you explore with different fits? And all that too yeah, yeah, I like different washes and so then you try, and then, when you try them on, if you don't like them, you just return them yeah, return them and then is that like at a ups store, a whole foods like what's. How does that?

Speaker 2 3:15

it's not that, but yeah, you have to go to you. I mean, it's that's.

Speaker 2 3:18

That's the annoying part, but you know yeah so that's enough to paralyze me yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, fair, so, but, but that would be more like we're getting into like the hassle of things, right, but I guess we could say like that could add to like another layer of what makes decision-making difficult. So it's like you know, first we're saying there's like almost seemingly infinite choices, like with the internet and like you know, and we live in a society of stuff, right, and so it's like what's and, and you know, so there's that piece. There could be the hassle of, like you know, our brains don't like to do things that are uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 3:52

So I don't, you know, and most you'd probably like to go to a store like here's one pair of jeans, this is this pair of jeans for you. This is going to look good, feel good, you know, know, last for a long time, but instead there's like a lot of factors excuse me at play and so yeah, um, yeah, so this and then I would say so this intersects with the way our brains are wired, and we talk about this a lot on on when east meets west, which is our brain.

Speaker 2 4:17

our brains are designed to problem solve yes and you know, and the problem with problem solving is that, um, you know, while it worked, look, it works really well in a lot of contexts. We can't solve things like what other people are thinking, can't figure that, we can't. We can't get rid of our emotions.

Speaker 1 4:36

And let's stick with that. Let's stick with what other people are thinking. I love that. You just said that. So do you think that that's part of the paralysis, because people are trying these genes on or thinking about it and they're really in that?

Speaker 2 4:48

example, it could, it could be yes and well. I think that the in with decision making when people struggle with it. The actual crux of the problem is trying to solve for an outcome yes what's and the outcome, wanting to solve for what's going to be the quote-unquote right decision, the right outcome, what I need to figure out, and I'm going to think through all the things that could happen in this moment.

Speaker 2 5:13

So what are the right genes? So this is where we get paralyzed because, as pete and I always talk about newsflash guys, that's imaginary information you actually cannot know how, like we don't, you don't know what those genes are going to feel like or fit like, until you actually try them on yeah, well, and I know someone's just listening like mid episode.

Speaker 1 5:35

They're like why are these two psychologists talking about jeans? So you could, like you could. You could substitute jeans for job house tile partner, like any decision that one is making, you know there are multiple options, and so you do, do you might. What I was hearing, what you were saying, is also like people feel like it's the last decision, almost like it feels sometimes decision making feels like it's like so big yes, yes, well, because again, it's like this thing that our brains do, that they say there is a right, yes, and and they and then and

Speaker 2 6:12

then the myth our brains do, that they say there is a right, yes, and add it they. And then, and then the myth our brains will tell us is that if we think about it enough, we'll be able to figure out what that right outcome is. Um, we'll be able to. And another thing I people say to me all the time I can't. They'll say I've thought through so many things. I I'm like sure you know, but here's the, here's the truth, like you, that doesn't actually tell you what's going to happen. So that's where people get really paralyzed. And so you know, decision-making is risk-taking.

Speaker 1 6:46

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's you feel it is risky. It feels risky. And I, when you said people have thought through everything, the word that popped in my head straight away was obsess, you know. So there's lots of people who then give themselves permission to obsess, you know, because they're like, well, I'm just trying to think of every possibility that makes you know, and I'm, and I'll say, like, working with high performers. You will kind of I think about this sometimes like a superpower. Their obsessional thinking, or thinking about every option sometimes is why they're successful, and so it's not such a bad thing to think about options. It's just that you don't want to get paralyzed, and so the goal is how do I take back some power so I'm not paralyzed but I can actually make an informed decision?

Speaker 2 7:36

That's such a that's such a great point, pete, because yes, it's not that. You know, I definitely don't want anyone listening to think like, oh, I just don't think through anything, just like go through the world like do just do.

Speaker 1 7:47

It's like sometimes I wish I could but go ahead.

Speaker 2 7:50

Yeah, sure, sure, totally. So it's not that, like, thinking through is inherently bad, right, it's not. It's that if we think through, believing that will tell us what will happen. That's where we get stuck. Yes, so the way to use thinking through notice I'm saying that not problem solving right.

Speaker 2 8:13

Thinking through right, like sifting through potential options, is while simultaneously dialectically holding the truth that whatever thing you land on that you're going to do that you decide. This feels aligned to me. I'm going to try this. That's all you're doing. You're trying it, making a decision. That's what I'm saying. It is, I'm being very.

Speaker 2 8:34

It's a risk. I don't mean that. I don't mean risk. Let me be clear. I don't. Sometimes I think we hear the word risk as danger. Right, look, there are calculated risks that we take that are very healthy. You know, a risk is we're just acknowledging we don't control the outcome. We're going to try something and see what happens, right? So, to go back to what you said about people kind of get attached to this idea that it's like the final decision, like there's nothing else. I think that's so important because the idea of like, when we make a decision, we're going to see what happens and then we can make another decision. That's right, like if you, you know, it's like. I remember having a conversation once where somebody was like paralyzed. They were using it as an. It's kind of a, you know, seemingly silly example, but they were trying to illustrate what their brain does and they were telling me they could get really caught, like on Amazon like, say, like trying to decide between different toasters or something and saying like something like that.

Speaker 2 9:27

And it was like reading all the reviews and then cross-referencing and all these things, and then what if I don't like it or it doesn't work as well? And so what we were talking about is like, look, I'm not saying like maybe you like skim and see these are the top rated ones or whatnot. Fine, do a little bit of research about it.

Speaker 2 9:48

But what I had said to this person was at some point you just buy the toaster and if the toaster comes to you and you don't like it, okay, yeah, you return it, or yeah, and then that's a hassle.

Speaker 1 9:56

whatever, sure, but it's not, this isn't um, it's not the last decision to your well, because a value-based decision is if you want to toast your bagel on the east coast, you have to have the toaster. So it may not be the best toaster, because our bagels are better, just I won't, I won't, I won't dispute that.

Speaker 2 10:13

That's 100 correct though we have. There is a up-and-coming la bagel scene that has been written about I will have to say that, but but it's, I agree, I I'm not, that's just my, that's my only little thing I'll add in there.

Speaker 2 10:24

But yes, yeah, well, but, but I think okay, because, because the bagel example might get a little confusing when people are thinking how is that a values-based decision?

Speaker 2 10:31

So I think, if we speak more broadly, it's like our values are again what brings us a sense of meaning, of purpose, of connection, warmth, groundedness, a sense of being vital, right, so steps in a direction of value, right, it doesn't mean that that step, that destination, is going to be um, comfortable each time.

Speaker 2 10:56

Like, if you're like chart, you know, if you're going to like I don't know, like you're going to sail, I mean, from California to Japan, right, that would be a really like long, difficult, uh, trip to do. You know, you might plan out, justin, maybe you're going to stop in Hawaii, maybe you're going to like whatever, there's certain markers along the way. It's not if things start to go awry, if you get like pulled off course or like you know you hit weather or whatever it's. It's like that's okay, like that doesn't get in the way of continuing to like, move forward and reroute, or you make a mistake and you, I don't know, I don't know what? I'm not a sailor, so this analogy is going to fall apart here, but no your point is well taken.

Speaker 1 11:40

I mean, yeah, you, just, you get back on course. I'm not a sailor either they use different numbers.

Speaker 2 11:47

They do. I don't like knots, I don't understand. I'm like I don't know. I do use a sailing metaphor a lot, but this episode just illustrated where that analogy starts to crumble for me. But the point is, it's okay we haven't used this word yet. It's okay to make mistakes in decision-making.

Speaker 1 12:11

Yeah, I'm hearing every client that's saying but, dr Rubin, I mean, this house is $700,000. That's a big mistake.

Speaker 2 12:21

Yeah. So this is where I say to people look, I guess, guess in that I'll say big decisions, really big decisions, like spending a lot of money purchasing a home or choosing a life partner right, or you know, or moving to another country or something I don't know. Big decisions, yeah, Like the stakes are higher.

Speaker 1 12:43

Stakes are high.

Speaker 2 12:44

Yeah, absolutely, the stakes are higher and so, um, it's scarier, and I don't want to invalidate that or say that making a mistake, um, it's like, oh, it's just all okay and no big deal, right, like mistakes can have consequences, right? What we would hope is, if you're making a really big decision, that that's something that there's been a lot of intentional, mindful consideration around, that you've gathered data, you've done something responsibly. You, you know it's buying a home I mean, hopefully, like you have enough money. You, you know it's it's a sound financial decision. If it's a life partner, you know, hopefully, you've done the work to get clear about what you need and what you want, right that you're not just impulsively doing these things, to be clear. That being said, it could still not turn out the way that you want.

Speaker 1 13:37

Yeah, and that's the Eastern principle of middle path. You know you want to try and find the middle path of gathering information to make an informed decision, assessing your risk for the cost benefit, living with your values, you know, and that nothing's forever. So you know that's something that's hard for people. But that spiritual belief, that sure I might make a mistake that this is the wrong house or you know I might make the mistake that this is the wrong life partner. You know like if over 50% of our, you know, domestic population is divorced, for some that's enough of a fear to paralyze them in the decision-making process. You know, for their next partner, you know the economy, you know go ahead Totally.

Navigating Decision-Making and Acceptance

Speaker 2 14:19

Well, I was going to say I think we have to be careful a little bit when we talk about like nothing is forever, because I think this is also where people get very nihilistic. Yeah, because then it's like nothing matters, like well, then I shouldn't make any decisions, or it doesn't matter, I should do just everything without thinking, because it's all gonna like crumble or whatever it's like. So I think that I mean, yes, obviously the middle path is is balancing how you're you know, we're talking about being thoughtful and taking a risk, right, though I think the important thing is when eastern philosophy is talking about, obviously, particularly buddhism, talking about things being impermanent. It's that and this is. You know, we we need to do another episode on this. We're not going to fully get into this today, but it's on our list, yeah it's, yeah, it's on our list.

Speaker 2 15:02

Is that this moment is not permanent?

Speaker 2 15:06

yeah right, this moment is not permanent, um. And so, right, this moment is not permanent, um. And so what I say to people often is like all we can do to make a decision is use the information from everything in the past up until this moment in time, and then what we hope to do is make a decision in this moment in time from that information and from our values, and then we're trying to move our lives forward. We're making these decisions in the service of living a life that we want to build for ourselves, and also radically accepting that in that process, in that ongoing process, we're going to stumble, we're going to make mistakes sometimes, and trusting that if that happens, that even if there's a big mistake, even if it seems really hard, that we can come back and we can keep rerouting. So I think that's you know, I know it's difficult to end kind of on this piece We've got to do-.

Speaker 1 15:59

It's really good advice. It's good advice, though. I mean I'm thankful for it, but it's very good advice.

Speaker 2 16:05

Yeah. So it's just I, I want, I want folks not to sort of um, you know, pendulum swing here, but between, like, I've got to, I've got to dig into my problem solving about decisions or or nothing matters. So you know, um, for our listeners, when, if you're, uh, if you're struggling with a decision, right, I would say, give yourself pause, right, identify what you know. Right, identify what you know, try to practice accepting what you don't and see if you can just take the next step and see what happens. This has been when East Meets West. I'm Dr Nikki Rubin.

Speaker 1 16:39

And I'm Dr Pete Economo Be present, be brave. This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs P V Conomo and Nikki Rubin.

Speaker 2 16:52

Content is for informational and educational purposes only.