When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E5 Paths to Personal Growth: The Differences Between Coaching and Therapy
Join Dr. Pete Economou and Dr. Nikki Rubin in a thought-provoking exploration of East meets West in mental health. By integrating mindfulness and resilience strategies from both Eastern and Western philosophies, they reveal how these diverse cultural perspectives can enhance your psychological well-being. Listen as they share practical tips for fostering acceptance, presence, and bravery in the face of life's challenges. Whether you're a professional seeking to refine your practice or someone on a personal journey of self-improvement, this episode offers valuable insights and strategies to support your mental health journey.
I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast Psychologist.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast Psychologist, and this is when East Meets West.
Speaker 1:Put me in, coach. I'm ready to play.
Speaker 2:Oh, you had that one teed up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's another pun, see it's another sports pun I just yeah, teed up.
Speaker 2:I didn't have that te to you, by the way. That was Nikki's cleverness on the fly, you know.
Speaker 1:Nikki's always clever like that. That or no.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's true. I don't know. I don't think that's true, but so I want.
Speaker 1:There's so many people, and this semester I taught a course of people that you know my students included, but just in the general population, that are saying like, hey, how is coaching different from therapy? And so I thought you and I will break that down. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great call. I think it's a great call because, look, there can be some overlap, like definitely. I would say, as therapists, we end up doing a lot of sometimes like like similar things to coaches in terms of problem solving um. However, there's also a lot of differences and you know, we want people to be informed. That's why we, that's why we have this podcast right. We want people to um have all the segue that they need, um to make a decision about what's going to be most supportive for them absolutely yeah, and that's yes, and so that's what I'm sorry I was like I'm excited to hear.
Speaker 2:I'm like tell me what you're gonna. I want to hear about your executive coaching.
Speaker 1:Uh course, yeah, well, and I like that you said that because you know, you said, like you know, as therapists, at times we could also be doing coaching, or you know um is coaching doing, you know, therapy, like which, which came first, type stuff, and, and the truth is, you know, psychology came first and coaching is, you know, borrows some of the theory. You know and some of the you know rapport and ethics and some of that type of stuff.
Speaker 2:So we'll talk about we'll.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about that. We'll break that down to different type of coaches and what came to mind when you were saying that was also, you and I are both cognitive and behavioral therapists and so I think we're more likely to say we're coaching, because that's the nature of CBT and evidence-based practice, Whereas you know, if someone, a listener, wants to tune into like the psychoanalysis episode, like they'll, probably they would probably. Someone practicing psychoanalysis is unlikely to call themselves a coach, or less likely.
Speaker 2:That's actually. Yeah, that's an excellent point. That's actually very important. Yeah, I mean, there's a broad spectrum of different types of therapeutic approaches, so that's correct, though I would say I mean because there's not as many sort of, I'll say, like old school analysts as they're what once were was so even people, I think, that are psychodynamic. I think a lot of them would say they engage in practical coaching and a lot of times, right, like just you know, I guess a lot of us wouldn't use the term I wouldn't I wouldn't use the term coaching. I think I'd probably say I'm problem solving, I'm like being active and helping people problem solve, sort of practical issues.
Speaker 1:Well, and this is also West Coast, east Coast different because I think people practicing psychoanalysis on the west coast might be a little different than our east coast psychoanalysis folks, but because I don't think many people here would say that. But either way, um the other thing, oh, I'm just, I'm saying psychodynamic versus psychoanalysis. So oh, folks that are like more modern psychodynamic, yeah, yeah they might.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, um. So there's also also the idea that because one of the things that coaching sort of differentiates from therapy is, they'll say that coaching is the how or the what and that therapy is the why. And I have a really hard time with that because, you know, especially from the Eastern perspective, I like delete the word why. You know, like I really I help, like if a'm like if a client's saying why, I'm like, well, you're judging, you know.
Speaker 1:That's sort of. That's the very basic side of when we look at why and so yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm very interested in, that, because I'm going to gently disagree with you, cause I think we ask why, cause I think we ask why a lot we we want to understand, like the function of behavior. That's a why like why is somebody doing what they're doing right? Due to learning history or to biology, or to you know, behavior's been reinforced over time, etc. Etc yeah.
Speaker 1:So contextually, certainly you can like dissect behavior. Still, you know, um, yeah, but for example, if someone's saying like I don't like, why do I feel sad all the time? Or you know something of that nature, and like, look, you can target certain things, but the you know, there's just some people who are predisposed to some of these types of emotions and ultimately, so again, from this like real Easter perspective if I'm constantly asking why, then I'm not actually accepting what is. So it's a fine line to how you get sure that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I I hear that I guess then I was. Yeah, the contextual uh piece here I think is essential because it's like there's a time to. I mean, we are humans. It's okay to ask why, sometimes right, and sometimes having an answer can be very helpful, and other times asking why takes on an avoidant function and it's not getting us to well.
Speaker 1:That's the thing, like like deal with what's happening, or something where they're like constantly going to doctors and then you know they're like why am? I always sick it's like well, you haven't accepted that you know your health or things of that nature, so um sure sure so. So I think that's where. So in the semester teaching executive coaching, there was that we almost every week we had to use the venn diagram of, you know, coaching versus therapy, and so you know, uh, maybe we'll put that up for listeners, but you know this, the the, you know because there there is overlap.
Speaker 1:So, to be clear, even and there is there are organizations that credential coaches and there's different kinds of coaches. So talk to me about some of the coaches that you're aware of. You know the different types of coaches that are out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and I also I do want to make sure we circle back because I want to hear what's on that venn diagram. I think that I find that helpful, um, and if I would, I imagine people listening probably would also. But you know, I think probably the the two that come to mind most for me in terms of like the overlap with therapy would be executive coaches and life coaches. Those are the two we kind of hear a lot about. But then, of course, there's like just all kinds of coaches Like there's like sports coaches, right, there's like they're dating coaches. There are business coach coaches, and I don't mean executive coaching, I mean people like I do some business coaching for people in private practice, for example, um, for mental health clinicians.
Speaker 1:Um, well, that's one of our sponsors right, it was exactly right.
Speaker 2:Uh, complete private practice toolkit.
Speaker 1:I can't even say the title of my cursor.
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah, so. So there's a lot of different types of coaches, but the ones that I I think about that might like fall into that venn diagram would be executive coaching and life coach.
Speaker 1:Life coaching, frankly and so I'll give you the event, the venn diagram. I mean, it really is just the way we did it, more simply, was just the overlap between just coaching more globally and therapy, because you know, because I teach in a graduate school of psychology, there's a lot of people who have the interest in doing some type of therapy.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:But the more organizationally focused kind of student is also open to like the coaching type stuff. Where exactly? And there's also I don't know if you said it, but like wellness coaches is another thing- oh right, I didn't say it, but that's, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:Nutritional coaching, I mean, we can go on and on. Now that I'm thinking about it, yes, yeah. So so what's on the? So what were the over like? What were the differences and what was the overlap?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, sorry, yeah, this is Well again. I think the coaching part was more like how to. It was developmental. It was kind of targeted problem solving, I think, because I'm so middle path, I always had a hard time with it where I felt like depending on the moon, if you will, like I don't know, think of gravity or something like this.
Speaker 1:Like it could probably be pulled in all these different directions, whereas therapy was like you know the why, psychology-based, you know things like that, and in the middle was just that you know everything else, because there was just a lot. So there was, I think. Ultimately, what we found and throughout the course of the semester we found that in order to be the best type of practitioner either way is about clear boundaries, ethics and like informed consent.
Speaker 1:So really starting, and operationalizing what the relationship is. So, even if a listener is exploring therapy versus coaching, I think it's important just to ask whatever the provider is, what are they giving you? You know, and define it is like what are they?
Speaker 2:what are they giving you? You know and and define it, yeah, and I think maybe what comes to mind for me is like the um most obvious difference is um, if you're a mental health practitioner, you are treating illness yeah sometimes, you know, and I know that some people might disagree with or not like that word, um, but but.
Speaker 2:But I just mean it as like mental, just like, and again, whether a mental health therapist has a doctoral degree or not, it's like, it's like being the health practitioner, being the doctor or the nurse, right, and so a coach.
Speaker 1:There's a diagnosis and a and a, you know, a billing.
Speaker 2:So that's the that's one of the other differentiations. Well, that, that too, that that as well, from a practical standpoint, absolutely um, and I think it more mean that like it's a dimension of functioning, whereas like mental health clinicians, we can have some overlap and like we can deal in like all the other parts of being a human, like existential issues, spirituality issues, you know conflict, you know career issues, and like anxiety disorders, depression, things like that. So a coach, a coach, isn't going to be dealing in in that arena. I mean, we could even say we could have another, we could have another diagram. It would be like what's the overlap with like, um, any kind of um, religious or spiritual counseling, right, where they like they might be doing something similar to what we do or coaches do, but they're I don't know. So there's just like many ways to um, yeah, support and uh, support human difficulty maybe is a general way of saying it yeah, uh-huh yeah, yeah, and I I like that you brought that up.
Speaker 1:There's a pastoral counseling now. Some of them are licensed and some of them are not licensed, and so you know, I I think for listeners it's just and and I don't know, what do you think about that? Like well, because we have this thing now, oh God, a good faith estimate.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, but that's been around for a little bit actually.
Speaker 1:Well, I know, we'll see there.
Speaker 2:Might not stick around, but yeah.
Speaker 1:But so, but to me that's sort of like an informed consent, it's an added level of like what am I getting and how much could it cost? Because also the other thing is, coaching is regulated-ish, regulated light. Because they're not licensed. And so I think, as therapists we are licensed. So if I'm a social worker, a counselor, a psychologist. I have a license, which means I am bound by that state's regulations for the practice.
Speaker 2:Yes, sure, sure, yes, Sure, sure. Now, yeah, exactly, coaches. Coaching is a certificate.
Speaker 1:There is ICF, which is international coaching Federation.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:There's ethics and there's sort of responsibilities there, but there's like no real penalty per se. Like if you lose, let's say let's just say someone acted inappropriately and let's just say they lost.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great. That's a great point. And I think this is where you know, because I was kind of basically asking you next like how do you think people should go about determining like what do I need a coach or a therapist? And so like I'm thinking well, one that's like popularly read a lot.
Speaker 2:It was like around dating coaches like seeing like you know that's like in the news a lot and, and so I don't like look, dating coaches could be helpful. I've had patients that work with dating coaches, or you know, and learning different ways to be more skillful. It's just learning another behavior, just like. If somebody wants to like get a, like a golf coach, I don't know Like there's like just learning to do a behavior more skillfully, that I I'm in support of that. That makes sense. Um, though, you know, let's say, they got really, really bad advice or guidance from a dating coach and they were being told to do things that they felt, I don't know, harmed them in some way. It's like there's no, there's no recourse on that, right, it's somebody. If somebody hangs up a shingle, you know, on the internet, uh, you know metaphorical shingle here that says, um, I'm an expert in, in dating, I mean, okay, you know, there's no, there's. Whereas, you know, for licensed um professionals were held to the standards of our, our, our, um, our regulatory boards.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think we could even really say we're an expert like that. You know, like I know that I've had colleagues that have been sort of challenged about having stuff like that on their website and it gets a little tricky because again, like, what's the metric there? But I think you know it's important that we just, you know the state regulations are to protect the public and so, uh, you know I've I served the licensing board for 10 years. You know, here in New Jersey.
Speaker 1:Um, and so that's sort of why I teach this class and some of these, this content, because it's I'm pretty, you know, intimately familiar with some of the statutes and regulations and sort of how it all works. And so it's to protect the public, and you know these. You know coaching certificate organizations are also trying to do the same thing. They just don't have jurisdiction, you know. So they don't, whereas, like as a licensed provider, if I am found to have been doing something unethical or illegal, I'll be banned from practicing really in any state, you know, because it will follow you. Now I tell you it's kind of it doesn't follow as easily as you would think. You know people have certainly lost licenses. I mean, there's a bunch of good podcasts about this. You know where physicians or surgeons will practice in one hospital and have a really high mortality rate and then show up in another hospital somewhere else and kind of conduct the same sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Dr Phil.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, Dr Phil.
Speaker 2:Dr Phil, who's lost his license in Texas for an ethical violation and but went on to become very famous in espousing psychological advice and guidance, but not as a licensed psychologist, right, yeah? So, yeah, we're getting a little off topic here, but I'm going to bring us back and say so how well then, if somebody came to you, pete, and they were like, well, like, should I get a coach or should I get a therapist? Because I think something that I sometimes I think a lot about is, you know, my bias, of course, is going to be like a therapist can do all of the things. Right, which is true. Right For a well-rounded clinician, right for a well-rounded clinician. Um, we would expect to be able to do a lot of most of these things. So, you know, we I'm not a golf coach, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:For example, like I can't, like I do think there's a place for for coaching, and so I'm wondering like how, how would you um advise somebody, in sort of like sifting through what's right for them or what they need?
Speaker 1:well, I I was throwing the question back on you, but I'll take it I I I'll say there's a few things here. One when somebody's trying to differentiate that if they've never done therapy, it could be important to explore that, you know. But if they've done therapy and they, you know, felt like they've gotten what they want out of it, then that's sort of an easier like pathway, potentially, depending on what the presenting problem is. I think, like you said, like never am I doing sport, coaching, you know, or even with the athletes I work with, I'm like look, I'm not here to tell you how to jump or how to, and actually I don't care if you win or lose, I just want to find, like, what your values are and how do you stay motivated and things you know kind of more.
Speaker 1:And then in business wise, like I'm not telling you like what stocks to trade, I'm just helping you, right, figure out how to manage your team. You know how to develop a strategic plan. You know these are things that can kind of that are like common denominator stuff that then the person has to, you know, insert the specifics to their, to their field. So you know it really, and if someone is going to retain me and start to work with me, they just again, my informed consent is look, this is not therapy, but it might feel like it from time to time, because I'm going to hear things that maybe other people wouldn't hear. You know, or I'm going to, and so that's kind of like, and then if I here, you know, or I'm going to, and so that's kind of like, and then if I, if it starts to cross over, then I might refer, you know, because again for us, as licensed folk.
Speaker 1:It could. It could get a little challenging. But, lastly, I know you were going to reference like one of the books that you really, you know, use a lot, but I also think it's important, like it takes a village, and so I have a ton of people around me in networks where I refer to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, yep.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think, like what you're getting, like the thing that I'm hearing most clearly in in what you're sharing about your process, is like it's basically you know, when there's something, um, actually quite targeted that somebody needs and specific Right, and so like kind of like going back to what I was saying about my bias of like, I can be like well, a good clinician can do a lot of the things that a coach can do, with the added benefit of, you know, the mental health piece.
Speaker 2:So a good clinician also recognizes we don't know, you know you don't know everything, we don't know everything, we don't have expertise in everything, and so when you see that somebody needs really targeted support, referring to a coach can be, I think, really powerful and helpful. And I was also thinking, though and this one is probably worth saying is like finances can also be a reason, like if somebody needs something targeted, maybe they need like four coaching sessions around one particular issue. Maybe they can't afford therapy, or maybe therapy is more affordable because their insurance reimburses it and coaching is not right Like that thing too.
Speaker 2:So I think you know, I think those, I think that's another thing about like what somebody needs. It's like that's a factor as well, Like where what kind of help is most available at this given moment in someone's life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so if someone's out there, if you're considering what's best for you, just know that it's you know just take that first step.
Speaker 2:You never know which way you're going. Well, and I want to mention the book that I was going to talk about, which is like from a coach. So there's a, there's a very famous um, she's a coach, martha beck. She has a phd in sociology and she wrote an awesome book during the pandemic called the way of integrity. Um, that I recommend to a lot of patients. Um, you know it, it's got a very like, you know, eastern flavor in the way of integrity. It's kind of like a Taoist translation a little bit. And she's a coach and you know, and there's a lot, there's some overlap. She cites Steve Hayes from ACT. She uses some very ACT kind of interventions. But you know, I think like that's an example of like I love that that's written by a coach. I literally recommend it to people all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so take that first step and know that it requires a village, so it's not just one. This has been when East Meets West. I'm Dr Petey Conomo.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin. Be present, be brave.
Speaker 1:This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs PD Conomo and Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 2:Content is for informational and educational purposes only.
