When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E6 Letting Go of Knowing the Outcome: Identifying Imaginary Information
Can you truly control the outcomes in your life, or is it merely an illusion? Join us in this episode of "When East Meets West" as Dr. Pete Economou and Dr. Nikki Rubin share their personal battles with the human desire for outcome control and the profound impact of accepting uncertainty. You'll learn how research bias can skew our perceptions and the necessity of retaining curiosity in scientific endeavors. Using surprising examples like lollipop colors and their effect on mood, we illustrate the invaluable nature of all data, challenging the narcissistic belief that we can predict results through mere thought and planning.
Shift your focus from the end goal to the present moment as we draw insights from Buddhist philosophy and Zen practices. Discover how embracing the process, rather than fixating on the outcome, can enhance well-being and performance in areas ranging from sports to business. By practicing mindfulness and acceptance, we can manage expectations and reduce suffering, no matter our circumstances. Listen in as we explore the continuous journey of letting go of attachments to both positive and negative outcomes, consistently bringing our attention back to the present—much like the practice of meditation.
I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast Psychologist.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast Psychologist, and this is when East Meets West. So, pete, we're going to talk today about outcomes, which I'm historically excited to talk about, because I have a long personal history with wanting to control outcomes, as many humans do, um, but yeah. But the good news is is, uh, because of what we do for work I've gotten a lot of practice and learning we can't, we can't control the outcome, so we'll teaser of what we're going to be discussing a little timely topic here.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, everyone's focused on the outcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's. It doesn't go. I mean, do you like, is this something? That what I mean?
Speaker 1:I don't know anybody that's not focused on I mean maybe some like underperformers or like just, there's probably some people I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think it's so human we want to because we. It goes back to the like we think we know, and you know it's what we get into like we think that we have, um, the agency to control what's going to happen. You know which? You know I often say, I say I say a lot just out in the world by saying this podcast to, uh, humans. You know we're really narcissistic species. You know we think we're, we're that powerful, we think through it enough we're gonna figure out what's gonna happen and we just can't yeah so how do you see?
Speaker 1:how do you see like western, uh, like psychology, and how would they like, how do? How would they talk about outcome?
Speaker 2:that's such a good question because it's like I think this is where, of course, like, language gets like a little fuzzy, right like in from a scientific perspective. Of course we look at outcomes, right like we, we run experiments and we see like what's the data say, and we say what were the outcomes of the experiment? Um, however, actually this is really coming together as I'm saying this out loud.
Speaker 1:It's happening in real. It's real time. Our producers are going to be so proud of you yeah, I'm very proud, very proud.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, a good scientist isn't attached to an outcome. They, they have a hypothesis right. But there's a curiosity to say I actually have to run the experiment. I have to, you know, see if the thing that I believe is going to work or not work, see if that comes to fruition, and so you know, there obviously always is an outcome. Something happens. My dog was joining.
Speaker 1:Hey Toby.
Speaker 2:What you're talking about is research bias.
Speaker 1:And I love that you brought that up because I mean, I deal with that a lot with our graduate students, because they just maybe get you know, hung up on the outcome and really what we know in the real, true scientific method, that no outcome is a finding in and of itself. So you don't actually have to hold on to outcome, right.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, it's like whatever happens is an outcome and we've that's data, right, so, like. So what I would say is, like you know, we could get really attached to the word outcome, saying like, oh, we're trying to, like, make something happen, but like a good scientist so literally somebody working in the lab, or we could be good scientists with ourselves, just to say, literally somebody working in the lab, or we could be good scientists with ourselves, just to say, you know, we have to be in the moment and do what we're going to do and see what happens. So if there's if, quote, unquote nothing happens, that's information, that's, that's an outcome.
Speaker 2:You add to that or like does that resonate with you? I'm curious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's exactly what it is. And so, just for listeners, like research, bias means that you know, like Nikki said, you want to be curious and you want to have a hypothesis that's driving the scientific method. So if someone's trying to figure out, do purple lollipops make people you know angry, that is just going to be. You know something that I want to read that study, so you're just going to look, you know that there's theory about you know different sugar levels that might contribute to mood or things of that nature, but you're not convinced that.
Speaker 1:you know purple lollipops make people feel that way. So research bias is trying to be as open as possible to the fact that you have to have a research, you have to have an experimental group and a control group, and so I may have to have a red lollipop group and a green lollipop.
Speaker 2:What's your favorite?
Speaker 1:flavor. If you had one, I'm gonna say, like how kids go red, my favorite flavor is red.
Speaker 2:Well, because your favorite color is pink. Yeah, my favorite color is pink. Uh, strawberry or cherry yeah, um yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were really hung up on like flavor, not color.
Speaker 2:No, no, I was going color, yeah you know, you know, when you're a little kid, you say like what's your favorite color? They'll be like blue. Yeah, yeah, cool, that's a good, that's a good flavor. I like blue also Bringing me back Pete, yeah, well, but so, like, here's what's really interesting, though it's like, but humans, you know, we're not very good at allowing for the openness to not know what an actual outcome is going to be, so that kind of brings you actually I was saying a few minutes ago, which is, like you know, we're a narcissistic species.
Speaker 2:So, like we think, like we're going to like figure out what's going to happen, right, and if we think through enough things that we're going to figure it out. And and I certainly experienced that in my own life Like I have a human brain, right, my brain is like let me try to like come up with all of these um things that can happen, and it's just, it doesn't, we can't, we can't. I say to patients a lot of times, like we're playing with imaginary information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, I like that, yeah, we're playing.
Speaker 2:So you can think through something as much as you want, but it actually doesn't. You can't borrow information from the future. It doesn't tell you what the outcome is. All you can do is run the experiment, that's right. Like be alive, like put one foot in front of the other. See what happens you know, yeah, yeah so. I'm curious how do you talk about this clinically with folks when you find people like really trying to like control what's, what's going to happen?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know, and listeners would know from previous episodes, that the word control is one of these things I always deconstruct, but the way it shows, up is that many athletes are focused on outcome and sport is focused, I mean yes, business you know, business performance, I mean most things you think about are based on outcome, and so to be able to let that go is super hard for high performers, and it's also like you started this episode by saying, it's also super liberating.
Speaker 1:And what we find in, like the wellness literature, is that the more one can do that, the more productive and more successful they will be, cause they're not.
Speaker 2:It's the paradox, it's the paradoxical, you know, impact, which I think we did a episode on paradoxes like years ago did we? Okay, I was like am I remembering that correctly? I do, but you know, the pandemic really like messed with my sense of time thank you for that at least yes, yes, that's true, that's true, um, but yeah, no, that's what's so fascinating is like when we let go of trying. That's what's so fascinating is like when we let go of trying to control what's going to happen. Oftentimes we're more skilled at being effective in this moment, right.
Speaker 2:But the difficult practice is like if we keep saying, well, I'll let go if it makes me more skillful.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, now you're not letting go of the outcome. Now you're not doing that. Before Peteete and I started recording, we were talking about this, saying that I want to share with everybody which is one of my favorites which we were trying to figure out where this came from. I was taught that this is an old buddhist saying pete, who's, uh, the practicing buddhist here between the two of us, said he's not sure, um, but they're saying that we, we, not the outcome. And you know, oftentimes when I share that with patients, I'll say like, what does that mean? And almost everybody hooks into it right away, meaning like we have agency over ourselves in this moment. Right, not what's going to happen, and it's exactly right. Like you could be super, super skillful and still get an outcome that you don't want. That's such a hard thing to radically accept as human beings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so maybe our producers will fact check to see you know the history in the beginning of that I mean, I'm sure to. Buddhism, you know, because it's very Eastern in that way.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know it's. You know so for a business person, for example, process is just like getting up a little earlier than you need to to get to the office, you know, so that you can work out or maybe meditate. You know the process of whatever it is you're engaging in, without judgment and just observing. You know if it's, if it's a sport, it's just observing. You know the mechanics of it. Am I swinging the way that I was supposed to swing? You know that's what you do not like. Did I get four home runs in the last three weeks? You know, yes, I don't know where that number just came from, but go ahead oh, I don't.
Speaker 2:Well, I was gonna say to me I was like I will now want to speak about my beloved Dodgers, who I was at a.
Speaker 2:Dodger game yesterday but there was many home runs, uh hit actually. Um, and one thing I can't I don't think I've ever talked to this on this podcast, but um, you know, one thing I love about the Dodgers and and you know, some people get mad at Dave Roberts, the manager, but he, he has a very kind of Zen approach to the way he coaches and if you listen to any interviews with players, they'll often say, basically, like we don't, you know, we don't get too basically high on the celebrations or too low on the the mistakes or the missteps. It's like you just keep playing, you keep being in process and that's what moves things forward. And so you know, look this this episode also relates to, like attachment, right I?
Speaker 2:feel like right you know, and it's just I'm going to say it a million times today it's like it's just very hard not to be attached to outcomes Like our. You know, other animals don't have that problem. You know, as far as we know, right?
Speaker 1:They don't.
Speaker 2:They don't focus on, like you know, my dog, who just visited right. He's not like oh, if I, you know, don't eat this bone right now, maybe I'll not, I won't get another one. I mean, I don't think he's just like eating the bone you know, he's hanging.
Speaker 2:He's hanging out, but we might be like I don't, if I, you know, if I finish this ice cream, is there going to be more? Or you know, if I don't? You know, do well at my job, am I, you know? Is there going to be a consequence? Am I going to get fired? Or, you know, go do well at my job, am I, you know? Is there going to be a consequence? Am I going to get fired? Or you know? Go on, and, on, and on.
Speaker 1:Well, the contingency thinking, it's like if this, then this type stuff, and it's like you know I think it's helpful to do it.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I mean, I think I, if I never really done a Zen talk on this I was just trying to think if I ever did but that actually could be helpful because I think the community would benefit from it, because I think that I do feel you know, you and I've talked about this off air, like some of the Eastern sort of practices, you know, kind of attract people that are suffering, you know, because all of us are right, that's, that's that's that's the foundation of Eastern practices, that every suffering is universal.
Speaker 1:And so you know, I think sometimes because of that you will find people that are so focused on outcome.
Speaker 1:You know, I think sometimes because of that you will find people that are so focused on outcome. You know, they're like, hey, your talk really hit me, like I felt so much better and I was able to have this difficult conversation. Or I recognize that I am addressing my own mortality. Or, you know, these are sort of comments that I've gotten after some talks um, so, so again, it's like it's everywhere, right, there's like everywhere people are looking for, you know, outcome, and in the East, like so the Zen teaching here would just be that like nothing is, like you just have what you have right now, like that's it. And so you know, you just accept where you are. And so, for the high performers, what I will usually teach and kind of talk about is you can't get to where you want to go until you accept where you are.
Speaker 2:You know you have to be where your feet are before you can actually get to where it is that you want to go. Yeah, that's really, that's really lovely, and I, you know, I think, just kind of going back to what you were saying, you know about people approaching you after talks and saying, oh, this really it's like look, that's great that things resonate. It's not that. That's again, that's not like a bad outcome or wrong outcome. For things something to be impactful or helpful, though what becomes unworkable again is the attachment to that needs to be the outcome every time that the outcome needs to be something pleasant.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's like, and you know, as we always say, like all roads lead to mindfulness and like the mindfulness is like. You know the old saying like push away nothing, cling to nothing, and like what do we cling to? We cling to what is comfortable, right, what is pleasant, what is pleasurable, and of course, of course we do.
Speaker 2:It's just that that you know that's not going to be our state at all times, and so this is where we trap ourselves. So, like the freedom comes in and coming back to the process, like the movement, what is happening in this moment, comfortable or uncomfortable?
Speaker 1:or neutral.
Speaker 2:coming back to the process, like the movement, what is happening in?
Speaker 1:this moment comfortable or uncomfortable or neutral? Yeah, I mean, people are always, you know, talking about that, where they don't realize that and it's nice Sometimes I'll see the light go off. I'm like you know you're holding onto the good right now and and I want you to feel this all the time- yes. And your brain doesn't know, like your brain doesn't know good from bad. And so by holding onto, that means you're also holding onto the bad, and so just equally, allowing just to be in the moment and letting go of whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And you know, look, I think an important message for listeners today is that you know this is an ongoing practice of of letting go of, of our attachment to outcomes, particularly outcomes of, um, something going the way that we want or feeling good, um that there's there's really no way around, like finding yourself back in that place, so kind of like a meditation right, like there's no way to meditate enough where you like. Stop getting distracted, like that's just part of it you know.
Speaker 1:So it's like you know.
Speaker 2:So it's like you just part of it. So like when you find yourself there, it's like okay, and like can we come back to process? Can we come back to letting go of attachment to outcomes? Because I guarantee you you'll. You'll find yourself again there again very soon. This has been when East meets West. I'm Dr Nikki Rubin. East meets.
Speaker 1:West. I'm Dr Nikki Rubin and I'm Dr Pete Economo. Be present, be brave. This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs Pete Economo and Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 2:Content is for informational and educational purposes only.
