When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E1 Balancing Life and Work in a Hectic World: How to Interact with Busyness
Can high energy levels be both a blessing and a curse? Join us as we reconnect after a whirlwind hiatus to discuss everything from our personal journey updates to the intriguing dynamics of hypomania among high performers. Dr. Nikki Rubin walks us through the booming success of her practice and her exciting collaboration with Simple Practice, while Dr. Pete Economou shares his experiences in academia and sports psychology training. We take a nostalgic trip back to the 1980s and reflect on the pervasive culture of busyness in American society. Reconnecting in New York brought us joy and a renewed focus on the importance of mindfulness and balance in our demanding schedules.
In another engaging chapter, we dissect the complex world of hypomania, distinguishing it from mania and exploring its allure and pitfalls for individuals with bipolar disorder. We also navigate the post-COVID landscape, examining how the pandemic has caused an over-correction in our engagement with daily activities. How can we align our busyness with our core values to ensure our lives feel enriching rather than exhausting? Tune in to hear our insights on managing the new normal, recovering from perfectionism, and finding a fulfilling balance in our increasingly hectic lives. This episode is rich with practical advice and reflective moments, all aimed at improving mental and emotional well-being.
I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast Psychologist.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast Psychologist, and this is when East. Meets West.
Speaker 1:Well, we've been busy.
Speaker 2:We have Everyone's like why have there not been any? I've been getting questions no 2024 episodes. I'm like, oh yeah, no 2024 episodes, and so we'll let the listeners into a little secret that sometimes you and I will record no 2024 episodes.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh yeah, no 2024 episodes, and so we'll let the listeners into a little secret, that sometimes you and I will record multiple episodes on a day, and so here we are in May, we'll say that we don't know when this is going to actually air.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true.
Speaker 1:It's May 2024.
Speaker 2:It's not 2024, yet it could be the future. Someone's listening to this, oh?
Speaker 1:that's like what is that? Some like universal stuff. What is that? What is that called? When there's like multiple universes in like the same place?
Speaker 2:Oh, the multiverse, the multiverse yeah. Except, except I'm more well, sure, I'm more meaning, like so grandiose I'm like in 10 years when someone's listening to this episode.
Speaker 1:Well, I was seeing this thing today. That was like in the 1980s nobody was like ubering food. Uh, saying hey, friend request no, no, no, just listen to cassettes and cassettes, I remember like teddy rexman, you know I remember just sitting there like listening, waiting for the song to come on that you just hit record, yeah, totally so important.
Speaker 2:So, see, see, you guys, this is what, this is what we're missing. We've've been busy, we've been doing things, like you know, talking about the eighties. No, but we have, and that's. You know, we want to talk about that today because, obviously, obviously, we haven't recorded in a while and it's because a lot of stuff has been going on. Well, just stuff, a lot of things, a lot of things, and you know it's hard to it's, you know it's hard to fit things in.
Speaker 1:I'm going to PR, I'm going to PR you. So you've just been super busy with your practice. Obviously, your practice is just like booming and you've also had this wonderful product where you've been helping other therapists kind of build a practice.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep, yep. I know I'm missing another there another, there's another. No, I think that's it no right. I was at the complete private practice to private practice toolkit.
Speaker 1:Yep, there it is, yeah there it is, yeah um no, I think that's well. They're all like this all the continuing education things that you do and a lot of sure, yeah, so there's a lot of um, I was telling lee the other day about because lee actually um tell, tell the listeners who Lee is.
Speaker 2:Oh, so Lee is my best friend?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've been friends since we're like, three years old and grew up together. Lee also, like, was a producer in TV. She worked on the Oprah show for many, many years, and so she's going to be helping us, you know, in the background with One East Meets West potentially, and so I was talking to her about your role with Simple Practice and you know we had Howard on and season two or three what season was that? Oh, two, season two, yeah, I know. Ah, where does time go?
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I was saying how you are like the face of Simple Practice and she she had known that because she knew simple practice from a project that she worked on.
Speaker 2:Thanks, thanks for the shout out. Thanks for the shout out. Well, okay, yes, so I'm busy. And then, pete, tell everybody you've also been very busy doing like 9,000 things at Rutgers with your practice.
Speaker 1:Like yeah, I just have a few yeah, a few full-time jobs but as high performers is what we do. But I feel that's where mindfulness and Zen comes in, feeling really balanced and yeah, no. So I've just been doing the academic stuff, some research, teaching, all that great stuff, training in the practice at the you know various sites with sports, psychology, and then just living life. You know life is, life is full and you know it's it's also quick. You know you just don't know what you got until this moment. Know it's also quick.
Speaker 2:You know, you just don't know what you got until this moment. So it's been great. Actually, I've missed you, though I've missed you too, but we well, and I want to. There's a thought that came into my head I want to circle back to, but I will say and Pete and I did just get to see each other.
Speaker 1:I was in New York and we did get to we did get to see each other, which was always delightful.
Speaker 2:Delightful, that was delightful, that was fun, that could have been a long night if my frontal lobe didn't kick in. It was better. It was better that we ended the night early. So what I was just kind of chuckling to myself as we're talking and we're talking about things that we're busy with is I was thinking about how, especially in our culture, you know, um, you know if listeners are are uh, not living in the United States. You know, busyness, I would say, in American culture is kind of a thing Like it can kind of be a thing like where people sometimes maybe even like to brag about how busy they are, and I'm, and I was just wondering.
Speaker 2:I was having like a almost like a social anxiety thought, like are people thinking that I'm bragging about how busy? So, and I think that there's something to be aware of there, because busyness can look, we all get busy but busyness can become um a way to either like elevate oneself a way to avoid things, and and I think that's something to be mindful of. And I'll say, personally I don't like being super busy because I always say like I'm very lazy yeah.
Speaker 1:I really don't, and it and it happens for all of us, so I don't know, I love that you brought that up, because I think, because of my Zen practice, where I'm like I'm nothing, you know, because, right, that's the Zen thing that says like we're all more alike than different, and so I'm very mindful of never complaining about being busy. So, yes, by no means is this like hey, listeners, help us, we want you.
Speaker 2:So busy.
Speaker 1:It's just more like you know, there's only happening, there's only certain hours a day. I think. The other thing that I'm mindful of is you're saying that is like one of the providers in my practice. She's got, they said two weddings in the last like three weeks and has four more coming up in the summer. So there's all these like generational sort of things that happen like or cohort effects, right, yes, yes, yes. And so I think you and I are in that cohort of like like professional blowing upness.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Where it's. That's, I think you know we're past, like all the other things that happen like early career, as they say. Yeah we're no longer early career, we're not.
Speaker 2:I know, I know it's, it's nice, it's nice.
Speaker 1:We shifted to mid-career we should?
Speaker 2:yes, that it's, but it's interesting because the early career for anybody is also very like. I would say. In some ways I'm less busy now well, not in some way, I actually am less busy.
Speaker 1:Graduate school is, like you know, hell on earth, so you know that was that's like a so wait, I love that you just said that, because we just had graduation this uh this week and uh, there's a lot of feelings in this current moment around that which will be for other episodes once you allow me to, but anyway. But there was this cohort of students that were so excited to see me because they hadn't seen me in a while, because I taught them the CBT course their first year.
Speaker 2:So first, semester first year.
Speaker 1:And Molly came up. And Molly said oh, a lot of them came up, there was, I think, 18 in that class and Molly came up and she said you know, you said something that first class that stuck with me, so today she goes. You said grad school is traumatic, right, buckle down because you're going to carry it with you, but just stay healthy yeah and I did say that that's I well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's also facts, facts, facts, you know, and I well, and I think, like, look, so if we circle back to like the concept of busyness which we're talking about today, it's like you know, I guess we're saying like busyness is going to show up, like at every stage of life. There's like different versions, right and again and again. Like I think what we want to be mindful of is like how are we interacting with it?
Speaker 2:You know so it's like you know, if you're listening, like you might ask yourself, like, how do I interact with business? Like, do I just like accidentally slide into it? Which, personally, that's something that happens to me. It's like I'm not being that aware and then I'm like, oh my gosh, like I have too many things on my plate too. I've overscheduled myself, right? Or is it like, is busyness something that you strive for and you're you know? You know you feel better if you're super busy, or you want to tell people that you're super busy, right? Like I think it's just getting curious around, like what's the relationship with busyness, while also not judging it as good or bad? It's like we're all going to get busy, sometimes like that, which I guess that now that I'm saying that is kind of have another meaning.
Speaker 2:A little yeah, that you know. People are going to get busy in all kinds of ways, so you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and one's not better than the next. No no no, no, no, no. And so I think what I also heard you say there was like intention. You know, if I'm telling someone I'm busy, what's my intention of telling them? Yes, yes so that's what we do from the eastern perspective is, oh you know, always aware of what my intention is behind a behavior.
Speaker 1:You know, that's our we've talked a lot about contextual behaviorism, so sometimes I've noticed in my own development that there was the time, especially during grad school, where it was like I'm so busy, yeah, totally, totally cool, yeah, yep, yep my calendar's like packed I'm just like peeing for five classes and you know yeah, you know my practicum. Yeah, I know it's so sad.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, that that can come well, because it's again, and I think, a lot of that you know. Speaking of context, as I was mentioning before, I do and I and I'm curious what the relationship is in other countries or cultures, but it is very American. It has to do with the over-attachment to productivity 100%. So it's like that becomes like a badge of honor. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've seen you know, obviously, since the pandemic, in the last couple of years, I've definitely read some articles where there is a transition, especially with like like Gen Z, where they're sort of not as not trying to be as busy, which I really appreciate you know like I've read that they're going like, whatever, all the like. What do I call it? Quiet quit, whatever. I don't know the amount of social media guys, I don't know the quiet quitting know the quiet quitting.
Speaker 1:Is that what they call it? I don't know something. I don't even know. Okay, there's some very funny tiktoks where they're like showing workers and all the like.
Speaker 2:Millennials versus gen z, gen x, okay, okay, and who's like?
Speaker 1:yeah, and they'll be like oh my god, I'm sick. But I'm coming in and, like you know, the gen z is like I'm sick, I'll see you next week, you know right, I'm gonna take care of myself you've been making me work too hard yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I that I was recently running and facilitating a workshop for a large Silicon Valley company and they were, like one of the people in there asked well, how do I manage boundaries if the late emails get rewarded? And it was. You know it's brilliant because it's a beautiful dialectic in that, you know, we're living in this world where you are rewarded by answering an email at 10 o'clock at night Um but also that it does impact your health and wellbeing.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. So it's you know. The question then becomes like how do you again I'm going to keep saying it this way, which is, by the way, for listeners um, what we're practicing from a mindful perspective is like how do you want to interact with what shows up, right? So?
Speaker 2:all we have agency over is our own behavior. That's it. So if what's interesting, if what's showing up, is someone's sending you an email at 10 PM and you're like, well, yeah, the boss is really going to like it If I respond, though it's ruining my personal life, yeah, like you have a choice, like I, I, you know I can't tell you what the workable choices in that moment and maybe it's not the same every time Maybe sometimes you do respond at 10 and maybe other days are like, no, I don't do that. Um, so you know. Again, that's like I think it's just important to be paying attention to what is workable. Um, with regards to busyness moment to moment, cause I Because something else that was coming into my mind just now is I was thinking about behavioral activation with depression. So, if listeners aren't familiar, one of the first lines of treatment when somebody is in a depressive episode is we start what's called behavioral activation, which I tell patients is just a fancy term for just doing things.
Speaker 1:Like Nike said.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just do it. Yeah, so you know it's. It just means start to activate, start to do things, and it can be small things, and so what do they find? And this is like one of the most well-researched things. Like, the more you start to do things, it starts to regulate mood. So that's right, busyness can be helpful too, it's not?
Speaker 2:sure you know, or like for my, my patients with anxiety. A lot of times people say like I'm better when I'm busy because there's not like the space for my mind to be chattering at me and I'm like, totally yeah well, that makes me think of, uh, you and I pre-recording talked about hypomania and I've always, I've always joked um.
Speaker 1:So for listeners like, hypomania is a term that we use psychologically, uh, which represents my baseline functioning it's also, it is, it is a mood state it is also a mood state yeah, uh-huh, uh, and so that which?
Speaker 2:we explain what it is to the well, probably not as well as you? No, it's good to practice feet. It's good.
Speaker 1:It's good to practice, yeah, it's good so I'm knowingly, with intention, going to attempt this uh, knowing that nikki will absolutely have a better definition at the end. So, uh, the way we hypo is the prefix within uh, just for like less than uh. Mania is the state that is like hospitalizable. That's what I tell students when we're talking about psychopathology.
Speaker 1:So people have heard of manic. So if someone's manic they are acting irrationally. Really high-level energy, kind of disorganized, sometimes incoherent. Hypomania is just like a high-level functioning, maybe even a little disconnect from reality, like intermittent Go ahead. I think that was. I think that was.
Speaker 2:I think that was a fabulous start, just to be clear.
Speaker 1:So yes and mania mania.
Speaker 2:So it's a. It's the opposite of depression. It's, it's um, it's a very um elevated mood state, right, and it's the most extreme. So people experience euphoria. They can also be agitated, like. The examples of things that happen is someone might not need any sleep for a few days. They might engage in like intense impulsive behavior like driving 100 miles an hour, spending like 20 000 or credit cards, something like that. Hypomania is, uh, is less intense than that, like it might be. I think the definition for a manic episode, I think, is seven days, and I believe hypomania is four, though I'm not sure if they've changed it with the new DSM?
Speaker 2:I don't know, I mean same. So hypomania is elevated. Though it's not euphoric, it's probably more just like energized and getting things done and, by the way, this is why a lot of people sometimes struggle. Folks that are on the bipolar disorder spectrum can struggle to want to maintain their medication, because media and hypomania often feels really pleasurable and can be very helpful in some ways. So yeah, so Pete always jokes, that's my baseline yeah it's his baseline, it's just not mine. No.
Speaker 1:So that's our beautiful yin-yang, where Nikki's baseline is on the couch Sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:And mine is like getting you know 15 things done before 9.30 am.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm a morning person, but anyway. So we joke with that.
Speaker 2:But I think what I'll say is most high performers probably have a baseline kind of close to what we would call hypomania.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're more, they're more energized. They're more energized. Yeah, we, we are. And not not to say you're a high performer as well. So it's not to say that, um, you know I'm okay with.
Speaker 2:I'm looking at my low base. I was I don't know. I like that about myself. I'm like I don't, yeah, no, it's. I'm like people that are like I haven't come into my mind as like lebron james. I'm like I mean that guy does like a lot of training, like he's yeah, and a lot of like whatever he's like does the school in ohio. He does all kinds of stuff. I'm like that's awesome. I'm like I am tired yeah yeah, well in in your defense.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, they also have a lot of people that they can hire to like sure that's fair run those things so store.
Speaker 2:But yes, I think that's so.
Speaker 1:That's the way that I conceptualize my busyness. Is that it's really about like sort of my baseline functioning, sort of um recovering perfectionism.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, because that's a nice way of saying it, I know, oh, mine is. It's always there. It'll always be there, just work with it.
Speaker 1:And that's what you said a lot today, like a lot of what we do is just how we respond to what's in front of us, and so I've been responding pretty well to what's in front of my busyness, um you know, I will. You know, I've been getting with my teacher, you know, up so my Zen teacher, at least weekly, you know, because now post COVID is kind of we're reemerging which I'm sure, we're going to do a bunch of episodes in the coming seasons around sort of the impact, because we're only just gathering data and understanding this like post COVID world that we're in.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, so what have you been doing for your kind of uh management of uh your business?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I guess I'll say you just um cued something in my brain when you said the post-covid thing. I do think a big piece of the busyness that I'm experiencing and I and I do wonder if other people have this too is due to post-covid. It's like the, it's like an over correction you know. So I think that like as we're emerging.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of us are like, oh my gosh, like life is back and let me do all the things.
Speaker 2:So I guess what I'm trying to do is, frankly, just kind of like roll with it, like I am trying to watch, like when I'm feeling, you know, overextended and like have a day of like not doing anything or going to bed earlier or whatnot. But I also guess what I'd say is in my busyness and this is newer for me, when I was younger I didn't do this as much the things that I'm busy with like do feel like and this is a dorky word, I know, but like very nourishing to me, like they're very values aligned, so I feel more energized by them, where I think when I was younger I would get sort of caught up in busyness, but they were things that would drain me Like, they were things I feel like they were in the shoulds category that I didn't really want to be doing. So I think that's that's actually. I'm just. You know, it's coming together as I'm talking. Yeah, I guess that's what's happening. Yeah, that's what I'm doing, yeah.
Speaker 1:I saw that happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you saw the wheels turning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can.
Speaker 2:And then you had your like aha moment yeah, I was like, oh, I guess, yeah, that's what's happening, so that's how I'm, that's how I'm in vivo, understanding why it can work. We do, we do, yeah, so anyway, so so glad we, we recorded an episode today you're welcome.
Speaker 1:And to remind listeners, this is not therapy, this is not yes, correct, yes, yes well, look, I'm happy we're back.
Speaker 1:It is so good to see you and I know that just um, we're going to keep you know we're almost at 20 000 downloads and you know we appreciate listeners that are out there, even though it's mostly just your mom and I and my mom, but anyway, but it's good to be back and so I look forward to kind of this season four and for us getting some stuff out there. This has been when East Meets West. I'm Dr Petey.
Speaker 2:Conomo, and I'm Dr Nikki Rubin Be present. Be brave.
Speaker 1:This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs P V Conomo and Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 2:Content is for informational and educational purposes only.
