When East Meets West
East coast psychologist Peter Economou, Ph.D. and West coast psychologist Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. discuss the relationship between ancient Eastern spiritual practices and modern Western behavioral science with practical takeaways for everyone. Learn more at www.wheneastmeetswest.com
When East Meets West
S4E3 Exploring the Thin Line Between Secrecy and Privacy
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But the episode doesn't stop there. We introduce an innovative tool that's set to change the game—the "vibe scale," developed by one of Pete's former supervisors and soon to bear his name. This newly minted metric holds promise for various applications, and we share our excitement for its future impact. As we close the discussion, Pete teases a mysterious secret to be unveiled next time. Stick around for our signature sign-off, where we challenge you to be present and brave, highlighting the educational essence of our engaging dialogues. Don't miss out on this illuminating episode that promises to enrich your understanding of everyday interactions.
Understanding Secrecy vs. Privacy
Speaker 1I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast Psychologist.
Speaker 2And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast Psychologist, and this is when East. Meets West.
Speaker 1Hey Nikki, I got a secret for you.
Speaker 2Oh, tell me.
Speaker 1No, I don't want to because I'm private.
Speaker 2Everyone listening is like. I don't understand this setup at all.
Speaker 1Yeah, we were talking right before we turned the recording on. So let's, let's, let's, let's break down secrecy versus privacy. Okay, let's do it, let's do it because I think this is a very, very commonly these are very commonly misconstrued um concepts and practices yeah, well, you know, one of the things I want to start with is that you know, sometimes, like in the world of sports, we'll talk about ways that you can build trust, like with a team, and obviously you know secrets can rupture trust, or you know right.
Speaker 1And so there's this idea of like acts of commission or omission that we talk about, you know, with some athletes, because you know you can sort of forgive someone who omits you know. So omitting meaning like I just forget to tell you, I tell you you know 30 or 40% of something but I omit the remainder. But committing a you know, a lie or kind of holding a secret or sharing, you know, sharing secrets that that really can have a big damage on people, yeah, sharing, you know sharing secrets that that really can have a big damage on people.
Speaker 2Yeah, sure, and I think this is where maybe it would be helpful to kind of you know, I know you love to get in on some definitions here, pete um, define secrets, or define what secrets secrecy is, or talk about sort of like the function of secrecy, um, because it's very qualitatively different than than privacy or or being private. And and I, you know we're and I'll I will set this up by saying secrecy is not effective and privacy is, for the most, for the, for the most part, for the most part nothing, nothing's absolute.
Speaker 2Nothing's absolute, you know. Just FYI, but I can talk about that too.
Speaker 1Well, I want you to talk about the functionality, but I'll give us the Oxford definition. So secrecy is the action of keeping something secret or the state of being kept secret. That's not a helpful definition at all, don't they know not to use the word that you're defining in the word?
Speaker 2Well, apparently not, because that's extremely unhelpful definition. How would you define it. So I would say a secret is something that we're withholding yeah and I and I think that speaks to what you're just saying in terms of why it can um like rupture or like a road trust, because it's. It's yeah, it's about withholding something and and sometimes there's like um, like shame associated with secrets you know um, or maybe it could also be fear right.
Speaker 2Like you're afraid of being like harmed or hurt in some way. I mean I, I will just say like this is where, like nothing's a hundred percent, sometimes keeping a secret is protective right. Like if somebody, for example, is like leaving an abusive relationship right. And they're planning to leave. They're going to need to keep something secret.
Speaker 2So the function there would be safety and protective Um, though, I would say that most secrets don't fall into that category. Most secrets have the quality of like. Either somebody feels like what they're holding is something shameful they believe it's shameful, or there's guilt around it.
Speaker 1Hold on a second. We hold, we hold secrets all the time, just based on our, our work.
Speaker 2I wouldn't call them secrets, I would call it privacy.
Speaker 1In fact.
Speaker 2In fact, even legally and ethically, it's privacy.
Speaker 1Yeah, all right, wait, yeah. So then I'm having the hard time differentiating as well. I mean, I'm not. I see the function and the difference, but I guess by definition or by act by act, they're very similar. Yeah Well, so okay.
Speaker 2So I'm going to explain my view on privacy in a moment too. But I think maybe it's worth saying that, and again I talk about this in session. All the time is like sometimes the behavior can look the same on the outside, but what's behind it?
Speaker 1is different, and that's the function right.
Speaker 2So, like a very silly or simple example which I've probably said on this podcast is like think about the behavior of sleep, like if you go to sleep at 11 o'clock and wake up at seven, we would say that behavior functions like to like for rest Right.
Speaker 2But if you take a nap at two o'clock instead of going to like an important presentation you have to give, it's still the same behavior, but the function of it is different. It's probably avoid it from that context, right. So, yes, on the surface secrets like being secret or being private that behavior can seem the same because it's like you're not sharing information, but what's behind it is different. So, with secrets, you know most times where it's about withholding some things I was saying, because there's like shame around it or there's fear of being judged or like there's you did something, maybe you acted outside your values, and you are withholding. You know, keeping information from somebody, you lied to somebody or something like that Privacy, the function of it is boundaries. It's like saying it's like more in the affirmative, like saying this is something that is for me.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Right, this is something that I'm not you know. I don't owe information to other people. I mean, I say all the time like we live in an era where privacy is extremely undervalued. People think like everything should be said. Every thought that we have should be posted on the internet at all times, yeah, so I don't know.
Speaker 1so what do you think about what I'm saying? Is that, yeah, make more sense or resonant?
Speaker 2my first thought is energy, you know. So I think like yes, yeah, psychology.
Speaker 1So I think like the underlying. So behavior on the outside seems the same, but underlying the energy is very different yes, yes, that's what I mean by like qualitatively different right? Well, we can measure energy, girl oh, I know, oh, I know yeah, I don't know how, but somebody can. Yeah, I don't like so I always say.
Speaker 2One of my, one of my former supervisees said one day she's gonna create the nikki rubin vibe scale. She's always, I would always say vibes and I'm like we can't measure it yet. I'm sure western science will figure out you know what's.
Speaker 1it's interesting. I started by saying about how, like the secrets or like omission, commission and building trust, like, say, for a team to perform I mean there are millions of measurements of performance, like in business, right.
Speaker 2Sure.
Speaker 1And none of trust.
Speaker 2That's so interesting, because how do you?
Speaker 1measure, and so it really misses kind of the mark about what makes for the most successful teams and businesses is ones that have this beautiful blend of the two together.
Speaker 2Yes, yes.
Speaker 1And that's again. I think this is where secrets and privacy comes in, because you know, and one of the things I do with like people, executives I coach is you have to have a balance of the two. So to your point with boundaries, like you can't be coming to work and just leaving and like having no interaction socially with your team. They have to know you a little enough. Totally yes, but doing that in a way that's effective and constructive, and I think that's what you said before you said privacy privacy is effective and secrecy is not, would you say.
Speaker 2Yeah, I said for the most part for the most part right yeah.
Speaker 1I agree.
Speaker 2Well, and actually to that point, like it's interesting as we're talking, that I think privacy also helps cultivate trust, because it's like it's somebody who's practicing privacy and not in an extreme way. So, just like I gave the example of secrecy could be effective in certain contexts, privacy could be ineffective, right, somebody could be effective in certain contexts. Privacy could be ineffective, right, somebody could be so extremely private. They're not keeping secrets, but they're just so closed off right.
Speaker 2Yeah, but for the most part, I would say when somebody practices privacy and doesn't share every single thought in their head, they have boundaries, they have emotional boundaries. It communicates to other people like I have self-worth. Yes.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2I deserve things for myself, or I deserve space or time. Um, and you know, I I mean again, I'm not going to like eloquently explain this at all right now, but like I think that I think that cultivates trust, I certainly like respect that in other people. You know, it makes me maybe maybe because actually I'm saying maybe it's because I I see in other people like oh, they trust themselves, like they listen to themselves, they know what they need, and that I don't know, inherently sort of, increases my belief in them and my willingness to trust them.
Speaker 2I don't know, does that?
Speaker 1make speaking. No, it's beautiful bananas, right now, I like it are you speaking truthfully, yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2I was like am I just saying cuckoo stuff right now? Are you just speaking truthfully? Yeah, I don't know. I was like am I just saying cuckoo stuff right now, or is?
Speaker 1that. No, it makes me think of Jim Carrey's movie Liar, liar, you know, and that's I often throwback, total throwback. Well, and if anyone's ever seen that or hasn't, it's nobody's that truthful Like. Everybody has some level of secrecy or privacy in their life, cause, you know, sometimes, like with OCD, people feel guilty that they're like not omitting everything.
Speaker 1It's like you don't have to omit everything Like the brain is really creative and and met some. Much of that stuff is just left for you internally and and actually I. There's a website called post secret and it's I don't. So I was listening to this podcast called vanish on 9-11 and this what I think it's like 34 or 60. Some people disappear every year, like they change their identity and so this, this, this podcast.
Speaker 1Um follows this young lady that just disappeared, um, on 9-11, but like nothing about her remains were ever found or anything. And and she was, she was seen all like the video footage, like going shopping on nine, 10. And so it's. It's really interesting. But that led me to this website. That exists and it used to be. Before websites were around, there was like a PO box that you could mail in a postcard with your biggest secrets. Wow. So for that podcast there was one that somebody who sent in saying everyone that knew me before nine wow, yeah, wow yeah, wow I mean, yeah, it was interesting.
Speaker 2I mean it's just like it's interesting.
Speaker 1But then there's another one, not so deep, that was like I'm so lonely that I'm I'm a checkout clerk and I touch people's hand when I give change back, because that's intimacy for me it breaks my heart right, oh, that was yeah but deep, like yeah, deep, but like that's. You know that, you know that that's happening in everyday life, because everyone's suffering.
Speaker 2Yeah Well, and so again, like secrets, maybe I could say secrets get in the way of connection.
Speaker 1Yes, right, yeah.
Speaker 2And privacy doesn't. Privacy, like, maintain space for us, right, and you can have privacy with another person, you know. So, if we go back to what you're saying about what we do in our jobs, like, yes, it's two of us in the room, right, like, and legally and ethically it's private, it's private and actually the privacy creates a space for connection to flourish, right, it creates space. Um, you know, boundaries create space. That's what privacy, what privacy is, um, but yeah, I don't know this is it's. It's just funny because actually I'm going to go back to what you were saying, um, about like, basically saying, like, all the things that are in your head and being overly truthful.
Speaker 2You know, we talk a lot about values on this podcast, right, our clinicians, so it's a big thing in our work. And you know, one thing I always remind people is like human brains can get rigid about anything, like even values, right, like we can be like this is the best value or the only value, and so honesty is one of them, sure, and so people get rigidly attached to honesty, which results in, you know, a dorky behavioral term here, rule governed behavior, meaning we have to follow a rule. I always have to say what's true or what's on my mind and it's like, well, yeah, sometimes it's really effective to practice honesty. Sometimes it's more effective to practice privacy we don't have to say everything.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 2You know. So I think that's important to remember too is that you can have values that are different directions, you know. You just can't, as you can't, travel. You know East and West at the same time, north and South at the same time, right. You have to choose what's going to be effective based on the context. So, um, and I guess I'll also say that, like, honesty and authenticity are different. That's another thing I noticed people conflate right. So just because you're not saying something doesn't mean you're not being authentic.
Speaker 2Maybe you're being very authentic by not saying anything.
Speaker 1That's right. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2You know, I love that.
Naming the Vibe Scale
Speaker 1Just to break that down behaviorally, I think is really helpful because you can again you get to see how it's, you know, internally based and kind of that value based thing, so that it's the energy. It's that Nikki Rin scale that we're going to be looking for, the vibe scale.
Speaker 2The vibe scale. Yeah, the vibe scale. That's what one of my former supervisors is going to.
Speaker 1She's going to name it after me. She said the vibe scale. Well, you know, nikki, this is awesome. We have to sign off soon because I've got to tell you a secret.
Speaker 2Oh, okay, Well cool.
Speaker 1This has been when East Meets West. I'm Dr Petey Conomo.
Speaker 2And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin. Be present, be brave.
Speaker 1This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs Petey Conomo and Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 2Content is for informational and educational purposes only.
