When East Meets West
When East Meets West
S4E2 The Multifaceted Nature of Intimacy: Beyond Romantic Relationships
How often do you consider the true depth of intimacy in your life? Join us as we explore the diverse dimensions of intimacy that go far beyond its typical association with sex. Intimacy isn't confined to romantic relationships; it flourishes in friendships, family dynamics, and even in the way we understand others. We ponder whether the term "intimacy" is apt for describing parent-child relationships and emphasize the significance of forming meaningful connections in a variety of contexts. Discover how deep observation and understanding of another person can enrich your everyday interactions.
In this episode, we also dive into the intricate relationships between love, intimacy, and connection, shedding light on the importance of love languages such as acts of service, words of affirmation, quality time, physical touch, and gifts. You'll learn about the enteric nervous system—our "second brain" in the gut—and how it senses safety in intimate relationships. We reflect on how intimacy can be felt in the body, likening its emotional nourishment to a fullness in the heart. Finally, we invite you to reflect on where you currently experience intimacy and where you might want to cultivate more of it. Tune in to embark on a journey of emotional connection and discover the transformative power of intimacy in your life.
I'm Dr Pete Economo, the East Coast Psychologist.
Speaker 2:And I'm Dr Nikki Rubin, the West Coast Psychologist, and this is when East Meets West. Well, pete, today we are going to talk about intimacy, which we realize we've talked about in different ways, but we've never just like spotlighted intimacy before.
Speaker 1:It's so amazing how there's like so many topics and here we are in season four and we still keep realizing there's things we haven't talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, which is particularly funny because I know I've said to you before, sometimes I really get sick of hearing myself talk, like at work, and you know, just like, oh, so, yeah, maybe it's both, maybe it's because I don't get sick of talking to you. I like talking to you, but I do get sick of hearing myself.
Speaker 1:But yes, I'm amazed I never get sick of hearing you.
Speaker 2:I never get sick of hearing you either, but I do get sick of hearing myself.
Speaker 1:But there's like actors and stuff that say that I don't know who it was recently Maybe it was somebody big that was saying that they've never even watched one of their own movies.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, I've seen that. Yeah, I've seen, I know. Yeah, well, you know it's funny if I link this back to the topic of today of of intimacy. I mean, that's part of maybe like what I enjoy about, like the intimate connection that you and I have.
Speaker 1:Right, that's like I wait, are we having sex?
Speaker 2:No, definitely not A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:I joke, I joke.
Speaker 2:Pete's watching me blush uncomfortably.
Speaker 1:Well, and I joke because I think most of the general population will think intimacy equals sex.
Speaker 2:Correct, that's correct.
Speaker 1:I wanted to set us up.
Speaker 2:You did it well, you did that well. You did that well, you did that well.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's listed there in intimacy, but like there's all kinds of intimacy and connection and like it's just interesting, as we're saying this, it's like I, I enjoy like being connected to you, you know, whereas, again, if it's just like myself or whatever, it's like not that we can't have connection to ourselves. We do have that and need to have that, but I don't know, I wouldn't say I experienced intimacy with myself and that gets, at least for me gets boring.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and so I, you know, I, for our fans, I like to give a definition. So you know, there's lots of different ways that you could define this. One of is a private cozy atmosphere it's not it's not wrong what's the?
Speaker 2:what's the word like um, is it like the danish? I think it's danish concept of. I can't pronounce it like high e or something, h, I, h, y, g. It's like when you like, have like a cozy, like atmosphere in your home. I just know, I think you're too smart for me.
Speaker 1:I would just say the the feng shui. But what we're talking about talking about is closeness of observation or knowledge of a subject, and so we'll break that down for ways that that might happen. But I like that Cause that that definitely relates to us, right? Cause you, you have knowledge of me, we're close.
Speaker 2:Sure, yes, yes, sure. But that, but that definition I feel like is into, it's like referring more to like, like, it is like intimate. We're saying we know something intimately that's right it can be like we know it well, but it's like it doesn't quite capture intimacy and I think the way that you and I are talking about it today, which is part of like connection with another living being yeah yeah, another human yeah, so let's.
Speaker 1:So how would you, how would you work on this? Uh, you know, with a client that's maybe coming in saying that they're having a challenge with intimacy or things that because so we're saying like you and I, as dear friends, could be into, like that's intimate yes, there's a type of intimacy. Yes, um, I think you could also probably have intimacy in pretty much any identity of your life. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess for me, like you know, and again like definitions, like whatever resonates with a person, but for me personally it's like intimacy is intertwined with connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's different types of connection right.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Intimacy is on the deeper end of that to me yes um, and that can you know. And again, we, we can move in and out of that in different types of relationships um, so there can be an intimacy and friendship you know um. I don't know if I would use it in like parent-child. It's not exactly the right word somehow to me, but definitely romantic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely romantic, I think there's more of the.
Speaker 2:It's a romantic, it's like, because I think, and maybe that's because in romantic connection there's it's so thorough, because it's like emotional. Again, it depends on the person. Obviously, this is I'm speaking generally, but generally romantic connection often includes intellectual, emotional and sexual connection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm curious. So you, you wanted to divide the fact that you'll see it romantically. You could see it in friendship, but you really couldn't see it for parent child. I wouldn't.
Speaker 2:I personally wouldn't use the word intimate between parent, child. Yeah, and I don't disagree, but it's an interesting thing because it's sort of like a lot of these child I wouldn't.
Speaker 1:I personally wouldn't use the word intimate between parent and child. Yeah, and I don't disagree. But it's an interesting thing because it's sort of like a lot of these things are socially constructed totally, yeah, we're, you know, totally, we're taking this word, and you know I'm thinking of a friend of mine from like the middle east who like cuddles with his mom as a 45 year old and sometimes sleeps in the same bed with her, which some americans would be like oh, that's gross. Um, and would that be?
Speaker 2:I'd maybe. I mean, I guess still it's so funny because even still I wouldn't I wouldn't use the word intimate, it's like to me, I guess I would use the word loving in that context, which is, just again, you're right. Everything socially constructed language is invented.
Speaker 1:Words are made up, you know so I mean this.
Speaker 2:We can get real. You know relational frame theory on people like you know, so in english at least I would say in intimate or intimacy denotes usually experiences, I would say in very, very close and deep friendships and romantic connection.
Speaker 1:Well, I love what I would say. I liked your breakdown. It was social. You said intellectual, emotional and sexual.
Speaker 2:Yes, Generally Like. I think that's why intimacy like apply something more thorough, whereas like in a parent child relationship. It's, it's more, it's not as thorough, Right.
Speaker 1:It's very specific yeah, because sometimes you might not tell deep secrets you know to a parent, child, but some where's anyway. This is how confusing this could be. So, yes, um, so intimacy. So I mean, how would you? I don't know if you want to go there right away, but like, how would you, how would you work with someone on that?
Speaker 1:oh, let me before you answer me yeah because the thing I'm also thinking is that I love how we always talk about how words kind of mess things up and you, yeah, relational frame theory, and then, of course, I was thinking like more from the western lens, which is like everything's connected and intimacy all around, uh, you know, no matter what the relationship is, uh, so that that I was an I don't know. I had this observation as we were talking that I felt like my western brain was kicking in, uh, eastern.
Speaker 2:oh. Oh, I was going to say I was like the relationship baby. There is Western Language as behavioral science, study of language.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my conditioning as a Western, but having studied the Eastern, yes, yes, that's what. I meant to say so anyway. So where should we go?
Speaker 2:Oh, um, well, so I guess you're asking like how would I work with that, like clinically, and, of course, curious, here you would too. It's, like I obviously, you know, and for those listening, like very common thing that people come to therapy about. Like you know, either that's a presenting problem or it's something that sort of begins to show up, you know, in the course of therapy. You know, if they're struggling in certain relationships, particularly romantic ones. Um, honestly, like it's, it's going. I mean, it's takes time, but it's work around vulnerability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Right. So you know, one thing that I talk to people a lot about is that you know, look, that being vulnerable is very scary. There's no way to not be uncomfortable. You know, you can get stronger at it, certainly, but, like, it's inherently uncomfortable and it's the only path to deep connection. So you can't, like, have your cake and eat it too. You can't have intimacy and deep connection if you're unwilling to be vulnerable. And the vulnerability is you know it's a risk, because you know you can be hurt.
Speaker 2:That's the point, um, so it's beginning to do that work of, like, cracking open and being afraid in the service of you know in this particular context, in the service of one's value of you know of love or connection, or romantic partnership or relationships.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you work in a similar?
Speaker 1:way, of course. You're like duh, yeah, yeah, well, and but in working, you know, with, with men, especially, like you know, high performing men, the vulnerability piece is really tough yes, so I think I spend a lot of time on that, you know, just trying to help, and what I'll say is, I think, sometimes what I, I use our relationship and so the therapeutic relationship really helps to kind of model what a healthy vulnerability can look like.
Speaker 1:And of course everyone's still, you know, afraid of trying to let down their guard and kind of connect with somebody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Well, because again you know, the hardest part is that the letting down of the guard. It really does mean you're opening yourself up to be hurt.
Speaker 2:And we've all been hurt, you know. So the choice is often difficult. It's like we can live a life where we're doing everything in our power not to be hurt and maybe in the short term that like kind of works right. Like we don't feel like as afraid moment to moment, but ultimately you're still going to be hurt. But there's no connection, there's no intimacy in relationships. It's like, or you can really try and you can like take the leap and you're definitely going to be hurt at some point. You're also going to cultivate intimacy and closeness and connection with another, another human, and it's like I mean, I've experienced myself and I'm always telling people like that helps you tolerate the pain that you're going to encounter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, the more intimacy you have, you know, with other people, it's inevitable it builds.
Speaker 2:It builds that muscle you know, and it's just like nourishing, you know. I use that word a lot, which I just kind of like a cheesy word, but I don't have a better word for it. It's just like it is. A connection is nourishing, you know, it fills us up.
Speaker 1:It fills us up. It makes me think of why makeup sex, you know a lot of people will talk about makeup sex, and they'll be like you know, the movies depict it and sure, yeah, every human being has experienced some, you know, really intense makeup sex. So for those that don't know what that is makeup sex, have an argument with a partner.
Speaker 2:It's not a clinical term. It's not a clinical term, but yeah.
Speaker 1:And I don't know the research around it because that's not one of our areas of expertise. But make up sex, have any kind of argument whether it's around familial things, whatever a value disagreement, and then, once you can emotionally kind of connect, be vulnerable, sex that follows it tends to be deeper beat. For that reason yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And and look, I think what's coming to mind I, I want to make sure I also say, sometimes, like patterns, like makeup, sex can also be, yes, like not effective, right that people use it as a cycle, like, even you know, like well, they chase it as, chase it as a drug, almost correct, right, right right um, and sometimes can be, you know, like a negative pattern and like abusive relationships, for example as well, but so I just want to make sure we say that also and the point that you're making I think is really important, which is like, yeah, it's an example of, you know, when there's a rupture yes, right in relationship, it's like a way we often seek.
Speaker 2:We want the intimacy, we want the connection right and there's like a there can be like more passion than that sometimes, right.
Speaker 1:It seems like an opportunity to give a shout out to Sue Johnson, who just recently passed away, as you mentioned, about emotional rupture, so that's like a term within emotionally focused therapy, eft which is an evidence-based treatment for couples um and so yeah exactly what you are highlighting is a lot of what her work kind of focused on. So you know yes, yes, absolutely if you and I were couples therapists, we would probably have devoted a, a session um an episode to her. But maybe we should. Maybe we'll bring like an well, we should.
Speaker 2:I mean, her work is amazing, it's also amazing you know it's, it's attachment, based on attachment, research and you know I'm going to.
Speaker 1:I'm going to write that down for us.
Speaker 2:Okay, write that down, write that down, write that down. Well, pete, I'm just wondering. Like you know, again, we kind of like we've been moving this. Like you know again, I'm almost like interchangeably using like love and intimacy and connection. Does it feel different to you in any kind of way, or do you I don't know or do you vibe with what I'm saying? I vibe, I always vibe you always about what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:uh, well, I. One of the one thing I had as we talked about this initially was um, there's also different people have different love languages, and so people will so people will create intimacy in all different kinds of ways.
Speaker 2:Sure, that's a great question. Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1:So intimacy could be like sitting on a couch for two hours reading a book and not saying a word to each other. Intimacy could also be going grocery shopping together. Intimacy could be, you know so, the love languages, um, acts of uh, acts of service, uh, words of affirmation, quality time, physical touch and gifts, and so thinking about sort of ways any of those things can create intimacy yeah, no, I'm glad that you brought that up and actually it was just coming to my mind.
Speaker 2:As you're saying, that is like it's because intimacy is about letting someone into our world yes and then being let into somebody else's world yes right and that, that no-transcript, it's like I would say, it's like how you feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, it feels very safe. Yeah, yeah, safe and scary. I'm going to throw that in there.
Speaker 2:Well, sure, well scary, probably scary at first, when you're opening up.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And then like a deep safety and a deep like nourishing connection. Right, it's like a way to be authentically oneself and somebody to be authentically themselves with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, and I I just keep thinking of the enteric nervous system. I mean that's where I think intimacy sort of communicates with the body? I don't know what you think about that, so I always think well, why don't you explain to people what that is?
Speaker 1:so it's the, the gut. It's the gut, you know, seen as like the second brain, so the area in your abdomen, that is the area with the most concentrated amount of neurons in one's body, and so you know, when people talk about listening to their gut or following their gut, I do think that intimacy creates a lot of activity in that area. Oh, that would be. I wonder if there's research on that. I bet you there is.
Speaker 2:But I would go to that too. I mean I, and just again, to be extra clear, neurons, guys, are brain cells, so that's the only other place in the human body where brain cells exist, or in the gut. And so, yes, I think, well, that's where, like it's interesting, you linking that to intimacy, because I would say I don't feel intimacy in my gut. It's like that's the information of like is this safe?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like, is this aligned? Like, is this grounding? And then, but like, for me personally, when I think of intimacy, it's like I feel it in my heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, because you're like, because you're healthier than I am.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that's true, Pete.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm circuited like a dude.
Speaker 2:You know no no, no, I don't know if that's true, but you know what I mean by that. It's like the gut is like, it's like the. That's the part where you're like reading information about, like, is this safe to be intimate? And then it's like where do we feel? Like again, I'm just speaking personally and also just obviously, when I hear what people share, it's like that, that fullness in your heart, like that swelling in the chest that feels, um, just very full, you know that's the nourishing, full nourish.
Speaker 1:I love that you said that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nourishing. Yeah, I know I always. I it's funny work with patients. I'm always. I use that word all the time when I talk about values and I don't know why. I'll say to people I'm like I feel like it seems like a cheesy word, but when I say it people are like no, no, that's like that resonates. That's the word I was like, that's the word we got to keep using it. Um well, pete, this has been great. I think you know we touched on a lot of different aspects of intimacy here and, for our listeners, I would just encourage you to just be curious about where in your life you experience intimacy and where would you like to cultivate more of it. This has been when East Meets West. I'm Dr Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 1:And I'm Dr Pete Economo Be present, be brave. This has been when East Meets West. All material is based on opinion and educational training of Drs Pete Economo and Nikki Rubin.
Speaker 2:Content is for informational and educational purposes only.
